What the chapter on performance-based culture misses about expectation-setting.

Anna Swayne: All right, hello everyone, and welcome to Missing Chapters. We're excited that you all have taken some time out of your day to join us.

And we'll just wait a few minutes while everyone gets logged in. And while you're logging in, if you wouldn't mind just dropping in the chat where you're zooming in from, we'd love to know what part of the country You're joining us.

Abby, I'm calling in from Salt Lake City, so that's where I'm coming from. What about you?

Abby Wilson: I'm in LA.

Anna Swayne: LA, nice. I feel like…

Abby Wilson: Whenever you ask somebody where they are, you're always like, and how's the weather?

Anna Swayne: Hot! It's always hot in Utah, I feel like.

Abby Wilson: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: I was, I spent a week in Michigan, and.

Abby Wilson: the weather was so nice. It was, like, the Traverse City area, and so, you know, Michiganders always put up their hand and tell you where. Yep. And it was so beautiful, and it was, like, a little bit of rainy, a little bit of sun, and I thought.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, maybe I should move.

Abby Wilson: Oh!

Anna Swayne: neck.

Abby Wilson: When were you there?

Anna Swayne: Just like a couple weeks ago.

Abby Wilson: Yeah, so that is what happens, is… I'm from the West. Anyone else will get you. Oh, you are. Because you get about 2 to 3 weeks, truly, of amazing weather, and… Oh, don't tell me that. there during that time, you're like, oh, this is… this is… I should move here. And then December, January, March hits, and you're like, what was I thinking? I say that people who live there probably love it, but I… I was like, I can't do this, I gotta go.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, okay, well that makes sense.

Abby Wilson: I just need to fill her and figure out when you could do, like, half and half or something, but…

Anna Swayne: I am definitely falling in love with… with the Midwest. Anybody… From the Midwest on, above. Love to hear where you're calling in from.

Okay, well, we can get started. Feel free to keep, putting any, questions in the chat as we talk. This is a very casual conversation and love to hear if you have any real-time questions for Abby. But Abby, we are so excited you're here and willing to join us and talk about this very important topic.

But just for those who maybe are new to Missing Chapters, this is just a… a series that we do at NAVA to help explore, you know, those worldside, you know, those insights or those tips and tricks that maybe aren't in the handbook, but we can talk about here and, yeah, explore them further. So… We have this pretty regularly, you can always join anytime or go listen to past sessions. We have them hosted on our website.

But NAVA is… I'm your host today, and I work at NAVA, and NAVA is just a, is a modern benefits brokerage on a mission to fix healthcare. So, we do that by starting with 160 million Americans who need healthcare, employee-sponsored healthcare, and we try to, get them better access, by providing better strategies, better cost analysis, better tools and technology. So, that's what we're all about, and we have… the very own Abby Wilson, who's the VP of HR at Road Skincare, and we are so excited because she is an expert in the field, and I'm happy to, have you just quickly introduce yourself, Abby, and then we'll get into it.

Abby Wilson: Amazing! Hi, everybody! I'm so excited to be here. As Anna said, my name is Abby. I've been with Rode since December. Prior to that, I had a very long history in private equity and in CPG, and this is a topic that I am super passionate about and can't wait to just, like. jump in, dive in, answer questions, maybe learn something from Anna yourself, and anyone else on as well. So, really, really excited to be here.

Anna Swayne: We are so happy you are. So, thank you for taking your time out to share, your knowledge, your expertise, and how you've, learned so much about this topic. So, with that, let's dive right in.

Abby Wilson: Do it.

Anna Swayne: Abby, when you think about, you know, performance-based culture, and just performance in general, what does that really mean for you?

And for road skincare.

Abby Wilson: Yeah, I think… I think the great news is, is that what it means for me and what it means for Rode is very similar, and that was part of the reason why I joined the company, but it's all about, for us, the how and the what. So, what are we trying to achieve as a business? That has to be answered first. And then, what do we need to do to get there? And we fundamentally believe that, like, we win and we lose as a team. And so when I think about performance-based culture, I think that's kind of where you start, as.

Anna Swayne: As a teen.

Abby Wilson: what does winning look like? Because then if everyone's performing at their peak, theoretically, the business should be doing well. So they work in tandem versus being these kind of two separate elements.

Anna Swayne: I like that. I like… I like the sentiment of, you know, we win and lose as a team.

That's hard to adapt. Like, that's hard to, like, rally around, especially if it wasn't something you previously had as a company, and now you have to shift and, like, think through, like, okay, how do we get there? Or you go off course and you have to course correct.

So, I don't know, what do you think, you know, I guess, why do you think so many companies adopt performance processes without first, you know, defining what performance actually means for them? Because I think they all want what you just described, but, you know, what's the disconnect? Why do you think that happens?

Abby Wilson: Yeah, I'm sure there's probably a lot of different answers to this, and people in the chat probably would say, you know, leadership misalignment, a lot of things.

Anna Swayne: True, yeah, yeah.

Abby Wilson: In my experience. because I've done this a lot, especially within private equity, is sitting down with all these companies, and the first thing that they say is, they want high performers, I want A-plus players. But then when you start to dig into it, no one can actually define what that looks like. And oftentimes, they can't define it for themselves as a whole.

So if we walk back and we say, alright, what does high performance look like to you, at an individual level in this role, or on your team? and they're kind of murky. Then I pull back and I go, okay, well, what does high performance look like as a company? Like, what does it mean if we exceeded expectations? What does it mean if we meet expe… if we use performance review criteria in as a company? And oftentimes, it's just very murky. And so I say, well, if it's murky at a company or a holistic level, of course it's gonna be murky at an individual level.

Anna Swayne: I can't…

Abby Wilson: the two together. And I think that's what tends to happen, is companies are really quick, or maybe leadership is really quick, to jump to, if we get high-performing individuals, then the company will be high-performing. And I think we have to define that performance roadmap. We have to set the vision. We have to create the standard and the expectation that will then not only attract and draw in high performance.

But it will create that map for them, and then they know where to go.

Anna Swayne: And that takes time.

Abby Wilson: And that…

Anna Swayne: that.

Abby Wilson: It takes time, and you're gonna iterate, right? Like, what was high performance for Rode 3 years ago, when it really set off? Very different than what it is today, as a more established brand or established company.

And I think, oftentimes, companies tend to look at what somebody else is doing, and it's like, oh, well, they were doing XYZ at Google, so we should go do that. Or there was a big time where, a lot… there was a lot of crowdsourcing around performance management, so you could go and you could look at what every company was doing, what Meta was doing, Google, all of that. And that's great for Meta and Google, but you are not meta and Google. So, you can iterate off of those things, you can use it as a start, but to just say, we'll adopt the same principles doesn't make sense, because your roadmap is not the same.

Anna Swayne: Hmm. That's so important, but I think, you know, sometimes leadership's like, shiny.

That seems to be working for them, let's go. So, like, okay, how… how… from… from your perspective, your experience, like, how can leaders better manage, coach, communicate performance expectations so… so employees know what it looks like? What does that, you know, is it a program? Like, what have you seen work? So they… so they stay focused sometimes. I think…

Abby Wilson: Well, first and foremost, I guess I'll say different topic, but I am also very passionate about, like, management, training, and investment. I think we have a lot of people in people management that do… have never had any formal training or coaching on how to be managers, so… how to better manage, coach, and communicate is a skill. You don't just have it one day because you get promoted into that. So, that's a separate topic that maybe we come back in a.

Anna Swayne: Yes, okay, we'll do it, yeah.

Abby Wilson: But let's assume that somebody has had that, right? And they're a really, really strong manager. I think you have to be able to draw a through line for your team, so here's where we're going. here's what I think it's going to take to get here. And so this is what I'm asking of you. Here's how you as the individual really contribute. And this is what good looks like, this is what great looks like. And then you have to just stay really consistent with them. So if you're changing the goalposts constantly, and I've been at companies where that's the case.

It's confusing. Even for your high performers, they're just like, okay, what was considered excellent two days ago, now you're telling me is something totally different, or you're constantly shifting the goals. So, how am I supposed to meet expectations if I can't catch up, if I can't get ahead? And so… if we're going to draw that kind of roadmap for them, theoretically, if we think about it in that visual, then we have to be able to sit down with them on a consistent basis and look at it and go, where are we at? How close are we? Where did we fall off? I think if you're not checking in at least monthly on how performance is going, I'm assuming performance isn't a priority.

Anna Swayne: Okay, that's interesting. I was gonna ask that follow-up question of, like, yeah, what… what… you know, what should that cadence be? Because I know for me, sometimes you just wait for that 6-month mandatory check-in. And, you know, I… maybe I need to reevaluate. Even if… even if the company's not. Like, you know, managers who are proactive, who want to be good, who want to, like, truly coach, yeah, I think… okay, so monthly, that's… that's a good… that's a good.

Abby Wilson: least monthly, and some companies, especially in a startup environment, move so fast. A whole world can change. Rode is an example, in 6 months' time.

So, that is… that just wouldn't work, right? Because, again, we've just moved… we're already on to the fourth, fifth vision, item, goal. It just wouldn't work. So, at least monthly, because then it allows you to course correct if something isn't.

Anna Swayne: It's going…

Abby Wilson: well.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Abby Wilson: you have time to, like, re-steer it a little bit, and if things are good. amazing. I mean, who doesn't want to hear you're doing amazing? Like, who doesn't want to hear your performances, like, out of the park? What else could we do? How else could we support you? Like, I think it's a win, whether it's an underperformer or a top performer. A monthly check-in.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. Okay, that's good. That's… That's great. So, That's gotta be hard for HR, though.

Abby Wilson: Thank you.

Anna Swayne: because if the business is constantly changing, or, you know, leadership, it's like HR's trying to navigate, so what role do you think HR plays in ensuring performance process is intentional, it's timely, and it's not just like, check the box, we did it for the year?

Abby Wilson: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: I guess it's… this is… It's a loaded question, isn't it?

Abby Wilson: I'm a little worried, and, I think it feels a little gold… my answer, I guess my gut tells me, it's gonna feel a little Goldilocks, so…

Anna Swayne: Okay.

Abby Wilson: when we get to, like, Q&A, people, feel free to push back on me and say, hey, I don't know. But… I think this is a huge opportunity for us in HR to get beyond the administrative and the systems role that we oftentimes find ourselves in.

I am very, very passionate about HR having a seat at the strategic leadership table, because I think when it comes to performance, we get to facilitate and we get to co-create with our leaders on how we define performance. Like, you get to be the expert in that, and what it looks like in practice, and how we hold each other and our teams accountable. You get to be the one who can really inform the rest of the leadership team on that. And then… you can't do it for them, because I see this… this is where the Goldilocks comes in. We, by nature, I find, in HR, are very supportive. We want to help, we want to handhold, we want to guide, we want to do all the things. And so what ends up happening is that we put this process together in a vacuum. And we do… we do it all for everybody, basically. It's like, oh, don't worry about this, I know you've got so much on your plate. So I'll take this all on. And then, I'll just roll it out for you, and I'll tell you exactly what to say, and I'll tell you exactly what to do.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Abby Wilson: you're essentially doing their job, right? Like…

Anna Swayne: Absolutely.

Abby Wilson: You can't do that.

Anna Swayne: I've seen that.

Abby Wilson: co-create. We have to do with, not for?

Anna Swayne: It's not far out of town.

Abby Wilson: Yeah, like, we are a part of a team, a leadership team, we should be doing this together, and then… we can really check in with each other on whatever that cadence looks like to say, is this working well for your team? What needs to be changed? Like, now let me get your feedback, now that you have something to react to. Let me get your.

Anna Swayne: for feedback.

Abby Wilson: And figure out how we adjust this, because it's not one size fits all. And they get to be a part of it, too. And now we can say that we built a performance process that works for our company, our team, at our stage, and we did it together, versus I kind of created this cookie-cutter thing, I passed it over to you and said.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, I've seen that before. Not where… not at NAVA, we're really good, no.

Abby Wilson: I mean, I've done it before. I've done it, where I'm like, I know everyone's so busy, let me just do this thing, and then You all on the best practice.

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Abby Wilson: totally eliminates any of their feedback, it eliminates any of their buy-in. So people are just checking the box at that point. They're checking the box that you created for them, but they're just checking the box. And then, no one is really, like, doing it with their full head, their full heart. They're just doing it to say they did it, so that they don't get trouble by HR.

Anna Swayne: Well, I'll have to be honest, like, sometimes it's like. when, you know, even those formal review processes, like, you… if you're in a… if it's not at the right time, like, if that's the really busy time of the year for you, and you're just like, what? Another thing to do, like… so I love that you're, like, that co-creation, because if you're co-creating with the business, then you're timing it right.

To hopefully not be a burden. So, follow-up, follow-up question there. as co-creating, because that's, you know, like you said, it's Goldilocks kind of fills, You know, ideal sometimes just to say it.

Are you co-creating at, like, the leadership level? So, getting that C team on board, or is it, like, also down to, like, maybe the manager level, and, like, what does that… what's that look like for you? Just… just to give us… just to frame it up. Yeah. For example, yeah.

Abby Wilson: I think… from my perspective, I like to do it at the leadership level, but I expect my leaders to get feedback and buy-in and information from their own team.

So, I expect each functional leader that sits around the leadership table to… if we're… if we are talking performance management, and we're talking a process, or we're talking a system, or whatever it may be. I expect that you are soliciting input and ideas from your team, and you're bringing that in. And probably filtering out some things, too, right? Like, if somebody's just like, I hate this, I never want to do this, that's not useful feedback.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Abby Wilson: bringing useful feedback to the table, as a part of, like, hey, if we thought about it from here. So, if I use Rode as an example, we launched our first, like, true performance management framework at the beginning of the year, and I had all these, like, ideas and plans around timing. And the marketing team, came to me, the leader of the marketing team came and just said, like, hey, we have two major launches back-to-back that essentially sandwich this. And while we'll do it, I don't know if this is going to get you the best, engagement in this process, because everyone is really heads down on this. And so we moved it. totally fine. Like, it's… it doesn't have to be.

Anna Swayne: I love that.

Abby Wilson: arbitrary thing. It was just like, alright, we'll push it back 2 weeks. We can do that.

And then everybody's more…

Anna Swayne: Yeah. No, I like that, because, like you said, opening that space to then have the conversation gets them to buy in, because if you would have just said, hey, this is what we're doing, marketing would have just grudgingly So, and I can say that because I'm on the marketing team, you know, like, we're gradually… no.

Abby Wilson: They're all talking about it behind my back. Yeah, exactly. I don't want anybody to hate it. I don't want it to feel like it's this big, weighty thing that happens to you. I want it to feel, one, it should feel, so ingrained in kind of, like, the fabric and the DNA of the company that it's constantly going on, right? Which is, we're a high-performance culture, and high-performance culture means X, Y, and Z. And so it just feels like it's a part of the.

Anna Swayne: I like that.

Abby Wilson: And if it ever feels like it's just this, like, burdensome thing that's happening to you, we should probably take a step back and figure out where we need to pull back, change, update.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, that's… that's a good check. Like, that's a good gut check. If it feels like it's happening to you, I like that. It feels very actionable, very like, okay, yeah, let's just, you know… because we all want… we want… we all want the outcome of high achieving, high performing, meet our goals, etc, and… Yeah, that's a good… that's good framing. Okay. So… So I guess… to kind of then bridge that to, like, how do you connect individual goals and the process? So, whatever tool you're using to, like, track performance management, you know, like, reviews, one-on-ones, and coaching, to the overall company goals, like, how… what does that process look like? Yeah, how do you do that?

Abby Wilson: America.

Anna Swayne: I mean, I think you have to have…

Abby Wilson: a system. You don't have to have an expensive system, but you have to have a system. I'm a huge fan of Lattice, they should pay me for the shameless plug. There's a million tools out there that will do it, and essentially, you want to be able to have a place, like, you could do it, honestly, in, like, a Google Sheet, which is, here are the company goals for the year, right? If you have further out than that, if you have, like, a big vision, that's on there. Here's the vision, here are our goals for the year, here's our department. And here's yours.

And we're just pulling that up in all of our one-on-ones. We're pulling it up when we're doing quarterly goal setting, and it's just… it's a way to see it all in front of you, so then that way, everything becomes a lot… a lot more simple, a lot simpler. a lot less cumbersome. I think the reason people tend to really despise reviews, when you think about, like, the traditional performance review, is because they are very time-consuming, especially if you have more than, like, 3 or 4 direct reports. They're really burdensome, they're horrific, no one gets any, like, enjoyment out of it. The amount of people that, like, have a lot of anxiety over reviews, both in giving and receiving.

I'm like, hold on a second, this is not what this is about. There should be no anxiety, it should basically be a recap of everything we've already been talking about. And so, if we are having to go back over a year's worth of data in our head that we haven't captured, of course you're gonna hate this, on both sides. But if we have really good quality one-on-ones, and we have a place where we're storing all that information. It just really becomes a… it's like a checks and balances thing. Hey, in this formal review. is everything lining up in the way it's been lining up for the year, right? If all of our one-on-one, all of our goal-setting conversations have been leading up to this point, it really should just be, like, you know when Instagram does, like, the year recap, or, like, Spotify does your, year review? Yes. It's your Spotify recap.

Anna Swayne: Well, and I love those, because technology does it for me.

Abby Wilson: Technology will do it for you. There's so many, like, AI plugins that are happening now, where they, if you take really good notes, it scans it, and then it essentially creates your review for you. Of course, you shouldn't just, like, thumbs up and be done, you should fill in with the gaps.

Anna Swayne: Oof.

Abby Wilson: But, it's so helpful to be able to say, like, hey, if I do the right thing right now, if I take really good notes during all of our one-on-ones, that's gonna save me hours. On the back end, again, especially if you have a ton of direct reports, or you have managers who have a lot of direct reports, and that's their biggest piece of feedback, is just, like, I don't have the time.

Anna Swayne: Nice.

Abby Wilson: You… these, like, 15-minute timeframes throughout the week will save you hours and hours in the long run.

Anna Swayne: No, I like that. Yeah, I like that. I guess, we're getting some questions in the chat.

Let's see, Amy asks, out of curiosity, how large is Rode? At a smaller organization, would you consider including managers at the collaboration level? So, back to, like, being co-creators and getting, getting that level of buy-in, especially if you're, like… I know I've worked with some C teams in the past, not at NAPA, but other organizations, or I've heard, like, feedback, like, it's, like. it's hard to get that buy-in, but sometimes, like, getting them to have a conversation, like, with the leader of engineering, for example, like, hey, I'm gonna go talk to your managers. Like, a little legwork can go a long way. What kind of examples have you seen, just to help answer, give more context for Amy?

Abby Wilson: Yeah, Amy, so I think juxtaposition here is road, currently is around 60 employees. When I started, we were at 38. So we've grown a lot.

Anna Swayne: Doubled. Yeah.

Abby Wilson: Yes. So creating a performance management process for 38 people was, a breeze.

Where I came from before, was another CPG company, and it was, I want to say, like, 500 plus, and it was global, and so very, very different. Also did not have a performance process. So when we did that, we did go to different levels in the organization.

Anna Swayne: Okay.

Abby Wilson: because the C-suite was going to be pretty far removed from a manager, right? Whereas at Rode, they work together constantly. So that wasn't really a need. But at that company, we did it in a couple different phases, and we worked kind of, bottoms up. So we started with.

Anna Swayne: No.

Abby Wilson: Manager, a group of managers. And pitch, like, this is what we're thinking. Does this meet your needs?

Anna Swayne: Oof.

Abby Wilson: Based on what we've heard from your feedback and engagement surveys. Got that. Then we took it to the director and VP level, and said, how do you feel about it? Then we could go to the C-suite and say, this is what your teams are asking for.

Anna Swayne: Oh, I love that.

Abby Wilson: You don't have to, like… create any additional work on, should we do this, should we not, should we talk to our team, should we not? We've already talked to your teams. They said.

Anna Swayne: Yes.

Abby Wilson: with their needs.

Anna Swayne: So all we need you to do is give me a thumbs up.

Abby Wilson: I like that. It's really transparent, so I think the question was, like, would you consider engaging? 100%. At a certain point, if you feel like your C-suite or your exec team is pretty far removed from your manager group, it makes total sense to do that.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, I like that. Well, and then you're, like, again, you're getting that buy-in quickly from those… that level that's gonna probably be the ones that are enforcing this. review process.

Abby Wilson: 100%, yep.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. Yeah, thanks for that question, Amy. If anyone has others, please drop them in.

Sounds like you got a request for your Spotify recap, so…

Abby Wilson: Is it the.

Anna Swayne: that is.

Abby Wilson: 100%. I'll be up to date, the entire…

Anna Swayne: I'll be honesty, okay.

Abby Wilson: I guess.

Anna Swayne: Taylor Swift, okay. Okay, so, switching gears just a little bit, because I think, you know, I think it's… it's… It's fun to outline this process, and really understand, like, okay, these are the steps you need to take. But what happens sometimes, I think, for at least from my perception, is like, okay, what if something goes off course? Then what do you do? So, can you share any examples of, like, where you've seen there was a disconnect from, like, business goals, or… or, you know, and you had to, like. Course-correct, or, you know, I don't know, just help the company realign, I guess.

Abby Wilson: Yeah, I think… I… I'll preface by saying… I would… my preference is to have empathetic leaders over… over anything else all day long. I will take an empathetic leader, over a non-empathetic one, any day of the week. And sometimes, I think, we lean really, really hard into the empathy. And we end up with things that are just, like, not helpful. So, if we're not super clear around goal setting, for instance, if you're rolling out goal setting, what is a good goal? What, you know, how does this look? How is it met? Whether you're using SMART goals or OKRs, explaining, detailing what that means. And then also explaining that you want them to align to the business, because what I've seen happen is, people will put a lot of personal goals in there.

And this may be a hot take, so feel free to…

Anna Swayne: I love it. I love a hot take.

Abby Wilson: But my hot take is that your personal goals do not belong in your professional tracker. your company is not paying you to achieve personal goals, like run a marathon, or, you know, work out 5 days a week. I've seen… I've seen a lot of…

Anna Swayne: Yeah, okay.

Abby Wilson: I'm so happy for you, and I'm so excited that that is a personal goal of yours, and we don't bonus based on your ability to run a.

Anna Swayne: marathon.

Abby Wilson: Right? We bonus based on if the company meets certain metrics. So… We have to decide, as a company, how are we gonna win, and how would we lose? And then you, as the individual, have to say, how am I contributing to that? And so, that doesn't mean that their growth and development isn't important. And that doesn't mean that it couldn't be included in the goal, but it's how do you connect the dots in that? So.

Anna Swayne: Okay.

Abby Wilson: Getting a certain credential, right, or completing a certain course, would support your ability to contribute. then I think that makes sense. So, if I use, previous company, we had an analyst who, was really charged with creating this whole new kind of, like. headcount process management all on Google Sheets, because everything was in Google Sheets. And it was brand new, we were never going to do it, we've never done it before. But we really wanted to look at, on a monthly basis, what our headcount budget was, and we wanted it to align to what the business was, like, earning, and what the percentage was.

So, she was totally down to do something like that. It was a really big, important thing for the company, and she needed a lot more knowledge before she could do that, in a way. So, she asked if, you know, she could take a, like, a much more detailed Excel course. And she put that in her OKR, right? Like, because by the end of the quarter, she was gonna have built out this Google Sheet that was gonna allow us to view things in real time, but that was her end result. Before she got there, she knew.

Anna Swayne: to learn.

Abby Wilson: Essentially, like, how to do all the functionality. And so, for me, that is a great example of expectations aligning. Yeah. I don't have a line to be like, I want to make sure I go on vacation for 3 weeks after this year, and work-life balance, like, those are not things that ultimately contribute to the business.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. Great goals.

Abby Wilson: Great goals! I want that for you. And so I find that managers oftentimes are also so supportive of their people, and sometimes very protective of their people. And so, when you have a really high performer who's saying, for instance, like, ugh, I barely took any vacation time last year, and, like, I'm nervous about burning out, I really want to prioritize work-life balance this year. It's natural for the manager to go, oh my god, yes, please, let's put that on your list, and then…

Anna Swayne: That's a good.

Abby Wilson: I will do everything I can to support.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, yeah.

Abby Wilson: And I, again, I love that. You should do that. That should be a priority. It just can't be a business goal.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. And you have to draw a line somewhere, so… Yeah, like, okay, we got another question in the chat, love these questions coming in. So, Abby, what do you think about this? Any suggestions for HR departments that are just one person to push for consistency in review cycles to managers and C-suite?

Abby Wilson: Yeah, so I am also a one-person team, so yay, one-person team.

Anna Swayne: Yes.

Abby Wilson: Yes, small, small but mighty. I think two things. The first is, I think we have to be really realistic and honest about what we can do.

And then where we need our managers and our leaders to really step up and step in. So, if you create a really overly cumbersome process. just know, like, you have… you're the checks and balances, you're the accountability factor, and so if you can't handle it, manage it by yourself from a capacity perspective, then it's probably not the right process for you guys at that given time. So first, think about, like, what you truly have the capacity for. And then second, I set high expectations with my leaders because we are a high-performance company, and so there wasn't a lot of wiggle room for, what I would call exception cases.

My expectation of you as a leader is that you do this, you do it on time, and here are… here's what happens as a result of that. People get their promotions on time, people get their, you know, their new compensation on time, people know where they stand.

If you don't do these things on time, then you have to go back to your team and explain. why they didn't get that promotion, why they… right? That's not on me. That's on you. And I think, generally speaking, it sounds a lot harsher when we're talking about it now. Of course, I'm not just This is how it is.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Abby Wilson: really, you know, leaning on your team, again, we are co-creating this together, leaning on your leaders and saying, like, this is my expectation of you. This is a… you are a huge component to this, and I can't do it without you.

So, if this is important to us, and we want to do this as a team, we truly have to do this as a team. And so, I think that's where that is. from a consistency across the board, which might be where the question is, like, how do I ensure that, my marketing leader is evaluating the same way as my.

Anna Swayne: Thank you.

Abby Wilson: Calibrations. So, we did a full calibration, and we went through… we're a smaller company, so we could do that, but we went through every person. We went through their reviews, their ratings. And we ensured that we were calibrating correctly, and we adjusted based off of that. So there wasn't a thing as, like, an easy grader or a hard grader. We all took part in calibrating those ratings, and then we were transparent with our teams that we did calibrate.

So we let them know that, as a leadership group, we sat down and we spent 3 hours going through every person's review and their rating, and we adjusted based on the holistic rating process.

Anna Swayne: Wow. And you… and did you guys come up with that rating system?

Prior? Like, did you come to the table, and you're like, hey, this is how I think we should do it, and then got some feedback, and then said, okay, now we're gonna do this? I mean, that takes time to do it, but so valuable.

Abby Wilson: it was… so I… again, part of this could just be because we were smaller, but I've done this at larger teams, too, and I found it to be really effective, which is, first, you design it, you get alignment right, then you communicate before the review cycle starts. You say.

Anna Swayne: I like that.

Abby Wilson: The entire team. Everyone can see and has visibility into Totally depends on your rating system, but let's say you're, like, an exceeds, meets, and, gaining towards expectations, whatever that may be. Or underperforming, however you want to describe it. And we are really, really clear, going back to expectations, of what constitutes exceeds, what constitutes meets, what constitutes underperforming, and we share that out. So then that way, everyone is fully aware of how we would go about thinking, and then… there's no surprises, so there isn't this, like, well, I didn't realize Exceeds meant this, I didn't realize.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Abby Wilson: This was the expectations. So, one, I actually found that from a calibration perspective, if you're really, really clear and transparent with that up front, and you're really consistent, you didn't… we didn't end up having a lot of, like, exception cases where we had to look and go, wait, how are we so far off here? So we had a couple that we had to calibrate, but very, very small, calibrations, and it was just because there might have been some nuances with expectations from different leaders. But overall, that transparency up front helps a lot.

Anna Swayne: I feel like that also sets the boundaries and the expectations of, like, this is how we're gonna do it, this is what we're all gonna follow along and do. So, I really like that. Calibrations.

Abby Wilson: Could probably tack a whole session on that. We could do a whole session on calibration. I love them. I find them to be, like, so fascinating, just to, like, get a bunch of people in a room and understand the why and the what. a system, why they chose a rating, how they validated that rating, or vice versa, how they first started with more of the validation and then chose a rating based on that validation. It's really…

Anna Swayne: Interesting.

Abby Wilson: Fascinating study of behavior.

Anna Swayne: Okay, well, we might have to bring you back on a session. Or write a blog post with you, because that, I think, is crucial, and to, like, again, hitting the expectation of the outcomes, of what you're trying to do. So, speaking of expectations, how, like, okay, from an employee experience, me, myself, I think others out there, there's just this, like, an expectat- or not expect… a perception that feedback feels a little ambiguous. It's almost a reflection of the person giving the feedback versus, like. you know, actually sharing something valuable, which I think… what I love what you said before, like, you make that very clear on your ratings, and how you're going to measure, and what that means, so that it gives some more structure, but… And so maybe that's… that's the example, or that's the answer, but I'm just curious from your perspective of, like, how can leaders make expectations feel more, you know, quantitative and clear through the different stages of growth? Because, you know, how you would measure a senior manager versus, you know, your interns is going to be probably a lot different.

Abby Wilson: Whew, yeah, so, I would say this is kind of an evolving process here, And it's typically evolving in a lot of places, because I think when you use the term high-performance culture, you have very, very high expectations, and I would say that is totally okay. You… if… you should have high expectations of your team. You should not have unrealistic expectations of your team. So, oftentimes. I really first want leaders to take the time to understand what their expectations are, and talk to me about that. And what I find is, when the ambiguity really starts to set in, it's because they're… They are kind of, sort of, without wanting to say it, holding someone accountable to expectations that are above what you would truly expect of someone in a, let's call it management.

Anna Swayne: I think I'm guilty. I'm guilty of that, okay. for me, Abby, this is.

Abby Wilson: I've done it too, because you might have this, like, stellar… coordinator.

And you're just like, this person epitomizes what it means to be a coordinator. But no, they don't. They actually epitomize what it means to be, like, a really, really high-performing or high-achieving person, or actually, they should have been promoted, and you weren't, you know, weren't paying attention. And so you… then you start holding everybody else accountable to that same thing. That's… that's on expectations. Again, that exceeds expectations, and so you can't hold everybody accountable to an exceeding, and you certainly can't hold everybody accountable to manager-level work when they are not a manager. So, we first have to get really clear and honest with ourselves on that.

And that can take some time, but that… that's first and foremost. Then, you have to, as a leader, be really comfortable in the discomfort, I'm a really big fan of, like, the idea of, like, challenge directly and care personally. If you truly care about the person that's on your team. then you should be able to challenge them and say, hey, these are my expectations, and here's where you're falling short, or here's where you're exceeding. And it should become very… It should feel much more data-driven. I don't want to say it's not.

Anna Swayne: personal…

Abby Wilson: because I do think, again, you're caring personally about them, and a lot of our identities are wrapped up in our work, so there is a world in which it is a little personal, but it's not subjective. It's not vague. It's, here's what.

Anna Swayne: Thanks, yeah.

Abby Wilson: Here's where you're at, here's the gap. And it becomes a little bit cleaner.

But I find that we get uncomfortable with doing that, so we don't really do it. We expect people to read our minds, and then we get frustrated when they don't. And I guess I just look at it as, like. people's jobs are hard enough. We're asking a lot of people, especially in high-performance environments, don't ask them to read your mind, too. Like, is that going to be a bullet point on the job description? It just… Oh my gosh.

Anna Swayne: It is, though. I do feel like that's, like… yeah.

Abby Wilson: I want them to be so clear, so crystal clear, with, here are my expectations, that then it paves the way for them to just go do. Could you imagine how much time, energy, and effort someone would save if they didn't have to think about and guess and anticipate your needs, but you just spelled it out and they just went and did?

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Abby Wilson: It's just… it's such a… I think, I know it sounds really simple. I know it's not easy, but it actually is really simple. It just requires some intentionality and some thought from the leaders, and we as HR leaders can help and support them in that, and make sure that we're steering them in the right direction, for sure.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, that's interesting. So you said, challenge directly, care personally. I feel like that is a really good, something I'm gonna put on my sticky note and stick it on my computer. I still use sticky notes.

Abby Wilson: From the concept radical candor, so if anybody has read.

Anna Swayne: Yes.

Abby Wilson: I'm…

Anna Swayne: Yeah, I knew.

Abby Wilson: I'm obsessed. I… I love it. I think it is… again, it's gonna sound really simple, and then you look and you're like, oh, it's not that easy. No, it's not that easy, but I think if people want to get better, or if you're looking for a way to improve your leadership team's skill in this area, give them that book.

Anna Swayne: 14th.

Abby Wilson: through that training material, and… because I think they do a really good job in that of clarifying that feedback is a gift. People want to grow and develop, and the only way they can do that is through feedback. So, challenging directly is not hurtful. It's not unkind. It's one of the kindest things that you can actually do for people.

So we have to kind of get over our fear of that a little bit. Get out of the discomfort, do it because it's helpful, it's useful, and it will help people grow.

Anna Swayne: Okay, I know this is… kind of going off just a little bit on the feedback, because what I… what would you recommend, or what advice do you have for managers, who are trying to solicit feedback about their, you know, team members, maybe from a different team? Because I feel like sometimes… depending on the process, or the structure, or the technology you're using, I have found that it's, like, I'm not getting good feedback. And I don't know if it's just, like, maybe… maybe you guys have had to do this at Rode, like, here's how we train people to give feedback. I don't know if there's just, like, especially when it's not… what is it? It's not double-blinded, or like, you can see the feedback that you're giving to somebody, and I'm sure that's culturally dependent on… on the company, but I don't know, any thoughts there? I mean. because it is so valuable, and it is a gift, and it can be, it can also just be someone just doesn't either know how to give good feedback, or they don't give any feedback. I don't know, what coaching would you have for managers and HR leaders to help?

Abby Wilson: Yeah, I think, be specific in your ask. So, if somebody's giving you, like, if you're trying to solicit feedback on a team member from cross-functional teams, which we do in our, like, review processes, we usually want at least 3 pieces of feedback from a cross-functional partner.

Anna Swayne: And you just say, hey, can you provide feedback on this person?

Abby Wilson: Or, you know, tell me, you know, their strengths and their areas of opportunity. It's… it's… your ask is very vague, and therefore you're going to get a vague response. Get specific. If you're asking a cross-functional partner for feedback, my guess is there's been some sort of a project, or something that they've done with your team member in the last few months, year, whatever, which is why you're asking. So, get specific with it. What was the project?

What was this person's role in it? And what was the person that you're soliciting feedback on? What was their role? And then get really, really specific with that. How did they perform on XYZ? Did they meet these deadlines? What exactly are you asking? Because the more specific you can get, then it's gonna be hard for them to give vague answers. But if you ask vague questions, you will get vague answers. So, good data in equals good data out, kind of a thing.

Anna Swayne: I guess that's important as far as, like, building your own process and criteria, is, like, ensuring you have that flexibility to change those questions, because I've seen some performance management tools that are just, like, kind of out of the box, and… and then companies are just like, great, this is, you know, this is how we should do it, and what I'm hearing from you is, like, hey, you know, take it… take a step back, look again at how it aligns to what you're trying to drive towards, and make the changes, even if it means some customization, or what have you… okay.

Abby Wilson: Yeah, so if your goal, like. you know, this is not… performance management is not a one-size-fits-all. If your goal is just to get people in the habit of giving feedback, you actually don't care if it's good feedback. Because sometimes that is true. When I was at, when I was in PE, we had a company that had just… they were so quiet. No one ever gave feedback. And then when somebody, you know, quit or whatever, you'd be like, ugh, yeah, that person was the worst. We're like, wait, I'm sorry, what?

They were here for 10 years, what are you talking about? So, I was just like, can we just get them in a place of giving feedback? I don't actually care if it's good quality yet. I just care to get in the habit of doing it.

And so, you might have off-the-shelf cookie-cutter systems that, like, ping people on a weekly basis, or set reminders to give it. And again, you're just getting them in the habit of doing it. Then, once you've built up that habit, then you can go, okay, how do we increase the quality of the feedback?

So, I think sometimes we bite off more than we can chew, and we're like, I want better quality, better quantity, I want this process, I want this system. Don't overwhelm yourself, don't overwhelm other people, let's just take it in some digestible pieces. And start small with, can we just get people giving, like, weekly feedback? Cool. That's enough for me in the short term.

Anna Swayne: Okay. Yeah, I feel like that's so crucial to the review process, and just, like, driving that culture of performance, high performance, too. Like, if it's top of mind, and you're… and you want it to be top of mind, I like the… I like the adjustments that you can make to be flexible there. That's good, that's good. Okay. Alright, I know we are coming towards the end, so I kind of want to hit on just one last thing around just driving alignment. So, I think you've hit on this just a little bit before, but, you know. you've been at small organizations, you've been at large organizations. How do you get everyone moving in the same direction with these shared objectives? Because back to your, like, hey, our outcome is high performance, hit our goals.

You know, give us some shared examples there, some advice on how to do that.

Abby Wilson: Yeah, I think… I'm sure there's a million different ways you could. My perspective on this is… is that people have to care about whatever it is that you're trying to achieve. In the same way they have to for their own personal stuff, right? If, you know, someone sets a New Year's resolution of going to the gym 5 days a week, but that's not connected to anything, they're probably not going to go to the gym 5 days a week.

Anna Swayne: That's true.

Abby Wilson: happen. So the same thing here, I think, I talk to my leaders a lot around this, like, kind of concept of, like, your team should want to follow you off a cliff.

And that, I don't mean that literally, but the vision that you paint for them should be so important to them. They should care so deeply about it, that they want to work towards it. And it's important to them to hit their goals. It means something to them to hit them or to not hit them. And they want… I want them to feel invested. And I think you have to incentivize them in some way to do that. And I think oftentimes we use, really, at companies, like, we use some really arbitrary or just, like, not that meaningful objectives, like revenue and EBITDA. Who gets.

Anna Swayne: Damn.

Abby Wilson: about revenue and EBITDA. I'm not saying that you can't do revenue and EBITDA as a big number, but you're going to have to explain to people why. What does it mean to hit these new numbers? How does that come back around to them? How does it… we use that to… how do we use it to invest In the company. Does it mean, you know, more money in their pocket? Does it mean more resources? Does it mean better and cooler company trips every year? Like. How… them understand a little bit.

Anna Swayne: I think my… Denying.

Abby Wilson: I think it was mine. We're back.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, we're back. It wouldn't be a true Zoom webinar if there wasn't,

Abby Wilson: A freeze moment.

Anna Swayne: as a quick blur, I was like, wait, I'm gonna take a drink, maybe it'll come back. Okay, so… I love that, because it's like, you know, it's really providing, you know, just that clarity around where you're headed, what you need to accomplish, and then that consistency of hitting the drumbeat of, like.

This is what we're gonna do, this is why we're gonna do it, and if you're doing it consistently, like you said, on a month-to-month basis, then… or whatever the cadence is, it's not gonna feel so out of left field.

I've seen some organizations who have a hard time adopting to a new process because they… it wasn't consistent, and it was, you know, felt totally random versus, like, we're all aligned, we're all on the same page. And so, I… yeah, I really like that. And a couple other things you said, just kind of wrapping us all up, around… hitting… hitting that Y, I guess, just as a close, if you're back, Abby, are you back? Okay, I don't know… I think maybe she's in deep… my picture shows her she's in very deep thought right now.

Okay, Abby, you're back. Okay, so Abby, just to wrap us up, I guess any last, like, parting words or advice as we as HR leaders and managers think through, like, how do we influence our companies to be more performance-driven. I think we're all asked to do, you know, less or do more with less. So, how do you think about that, and what are just, like, some one-two things, just to wrap us all up?

Abby Wilson: Okay, I think you all can hear me. If you can't hear me, we'll do this another. I'll type it in the chat. We're good? Okay, amazing. I think, I don't want to use this, like, annoying consulting term of boil the ocean, but I do think it's important. You don't have to boil the ocean here. You can start small. You can do a 30, 60, 90 for all of your new hires, and that could be really meaningful. You can implement a template for one-on-ones, and you're like, we don't do reviews here.

Anna Swayne: Totally.

Abby Wilson: We just pull all of our managers to one-on-ones every week. You… it doesn't have to be big and lofty to be meaningful and impactful to your teams. And so… Think… actually, think small to think big would be my biggest piece of feedback, because just taking some action is gonna start to move the needle.

And then you can solicit feedback, you can iterate, you can grow from there. But don't let the concept of performance management, be so big that it keeps you from doing anything.

Anna Swayne: I think that's so critical. I think… I even think that for myself. Like, any goal you're gonna do, it's just like, just get started, just think, what can you do right now, today, two weeks, like, really break it down. I really like that. So… Abby, you've been incredible. I really have enjoyed our session.

Abby Wilson: Thank you.

Anna Swayne: notes. Hopefully all of our listeners are… have also taken some notes. I think some quick wins that… that I, you know, as we… as we kind of close up here, is around just, like, that co-creating. Like, that… I don't know, that just really resonated to me. Hopefully, it resonated to a lot of you, because I think that's an easy… bridge into getting other people to buy in, and then make those… those steps together, like, break it down together to boil the ocean. So, thank you so much. And then, you know, any… anything, if anything, you guys can go back and watch this.

Read the blog, like… There's gonna be a lot of good follow-up here, and hopefully, Abby, you will come back and join us, and maybe we'll do a couple other sessions. Like you said, you could talk about this for hours, you're very passionate, and we just have really loved having you, so thank you. And if you want to join us for the next session, we've got another one coming up in November. I'm really excited about this one, about just, wellness perks, and how we can you know, how that contributes to the employee well-being. And, we also have a webinar coming up on, we're partnering with a company called Clio to do a caregiving webinar. We know that caregiving happens from, you know, all different stages, and this is going to be a really cool webinar to walk through that and what HR can do to help support their workforce in caring for not only the children, but also up to, you know, senior care.

And so, yeah, that's coming up, and then one last announcement. If you haven't joined our community of change agents, please do. It's a great place to, like, continue to have a conversation, ask questions, do tips and tricks there. All kinds of things are happening in that community, from just, like. fun things of, like, what should we do for this, to how do we tackle this and this challenge with, like, leave management, or, you know, things that are trending. So, join us there, it's free, and it's fun to… to connect.

And so that is what we have. all for you. Today, we're so glad you joined us, took time out of your day to just stop and think and explore this whole concept around performance-based culture. So, Abby, again, thank you so much. We hope to have you back, and hope everyone else has an amazing rest of their day. Thanks a lot everybody.

Bye.

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