What the chapter on wellness perks misses about real employee well-being.

Anna Swayne: Hey, everybody! Welcome to this month's Missing Chapters. We're very excited you are here. Thanks for joining us. While we wait for a few people to come in, would love for you to drop in the chat where you're zooming in from. how many years you've been in HR, whatever you want to share, just to help us get to know you a little bit better. But we are both very excited that you're here! And, yeah, if you put in where your chat… I'm calling in from Salt Lake City, Utah.

It is the most perfect fall day here, Ariel, where are you calling in from?

Ariel Hoffman: I am calling in from Thousand Oaks, California, which is in Southern California. And it is a little gloomy today, and I'm sad about it.

Anna Swayne: Sad, yeah. You're like, no, you'd always… I always expect California to have the most perfect weather all the time.

Ariel Hoffman: All the time. Yes, absolutely, and it's one of the reasons why we moved here, because I lived in New York for so long.

Anna Swayne: -Oh.

Ariel Hoffman: And, I do get very sad when the weather starts to change, and yeah. Anyway.

Anna Swayne: But it's… yeah. There's enough, probably, really good days that happen.

Ariel Hoffman: I mean, I'm wearing on a sweater. And I'm annoyed by it.

Anna Swayne: Oh, that's great. Oh, Myra's here, yay! Welcome, Myra. Thanks for joining us.

Ariel Hoffman: Oh my god.

Anna Swayne: Okay, well, yeah, please, if you're… don't be shy, the chat is live, drop in where you're zooming in from, we will go ahead and get started.

For those of you who are new to Missing Chapters, this is a series that we do, every other month to really talk about and explore real-world insights that HR leaders need, business leaders need, but don't always find it in the handbook. or didn't study it in school, and so whether you're just starting out in HR, or you've been in HR for decades, Our goal really here is to create really fun conversations that make you feel seen, supported, and, you know, set you up for exploring a topic that isn't always gets talked about. So, that's why we're very excited to have Arielle here to walk us through, this particular topic about well-being.

But before I get into that, just a little bit about NAVA, and who we are, if you're not familiar with NAVA. We are a modern benefits brokerage, really on a mission to fix healthcare by providing high, affordable, healthcare that's more accessible, starting with the 160 million Americans who rely on sponsored, you know, employee-sponsored plans. And so, we work with HR leaders to design better benefit strategies that actually serve your people and your bottom line, which is also really crucial as business leaders. And so.

I'm really excited to introduce Arielle today, because Arielle is a coach, a fitness, nutrition expert, and she is doing a lot in the space around employee well-being. And that's really important to us, because if your employees are happy, your bottom line, and everything's working a little bit better if, if your, if your employees are, you know, well taken care of. And so, Arielle, thank you so much for being here. So excited you're here. Do you want to just do a quick intro on you? I know you work with CEOs and executive teams, and you really just help us reimagine the employee well-being space, but… I'll let you speak in your own words, too, and then we can jump into our conversation.

Ariel Hoffman: Sure, thank you so much for having me. I'm really thrilled to… be here today with, with you all. So, I am a fitness and nutrition expert, and I mainly help people, get their energy back and build sustainable, Sustainable habits that can take them through any stage in life with a focus on fitness and nutrition lifestyle.

And I work with a variety of people, but I mainly work with, women is my main demographic. I work with everybody, but, women is my main demographic and my specialty, and, typically, They are working moms, they are typically on an executive team, or they've got They're climbing the corporate ladder, they're very driven, ambitious. Have a lot to do in life, have a lot they want to do in life.

Anna Swayne: Yet they feel that it comes at the expense of their own health, and so I work to reverse that.

Ariel Hoffman: And put their health first, and help them prioritize their health first. So that they can be their best in life and in work, have that balance, and be the best that they can be.

Anna Swayne: I love that. And it really can. you know, go across the board. I think a… I think a lot of people, you know, you hear, you hear it, you see the trends happening on LinkedIn, or just, like, in my, you know, in the different communities. that I am a part of, about people just sacrificing their health at the, you know, like the expense of climbing the corporate ladder, which… It's sad. it's… I think it's shifting generationally a little bit, but those who, you know, are specifically, like, millennial, like, top of millennial into Gen Z, and even boomers, I've seen that, and I've… you can now… a lot of research has happened, so it's like, oh, we actually have the evidence or the data to tell us, like, oh, yeah.

It's not just a hearsay, there's, like, actually a trend, so… I'm really excited to talk about this today, and employee well-being in general, because it doesn't get talked about as often as it probably should.

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: And then how do you… what are the steps to take to kind of reverse it, or navigate, or build plans within your own organization that will help design for a better, you know. better behavior, better habits, I guess. Okay, so let's… so, I'm getting way ahead of myself, I'm just so excited. Let's set the stage here, Ariel. You've worked with a lot of executives and different teams on, you know. common challenges. I guess let's just set the stage. What have you been seeing? What kind of trends have you been seeing? What type of things come up?

Around this topic, and, you know. How are you, like, approaching it and getting started to help these organizations just… do better and offer more, I guess.

Ariel Hoffman: Sure, I have so much to say about it. The main issues I hear about NC and Tackle, one are… one is confusion. Just, we are in an age of the information superhighway, and you can give someone benefits, and you can give somebody a resource, but because there is so much information, not just information, conflicting information.

Anna Swayne: Yes.

Ariel Hoffman: oftentimes, people come to me so confused, right? Like, for example, with diets. Well, this diet says I'm supposed to eat this, and this diet says I'm not supposed to eat the thing that was on this diet, so… and I'm not supposed to eat fruit, because it has sugar in it, but I don't know what to do, and I can't lose weight. I mean, it's just… that's how they come at me. The way I was just…

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: that with you all, is how people communicate it to me. And, you know, so that's one of the main… challenges I see. The other challenge is… support, and implementation. And what I mean by that is… take, for instance, any of these, like, short-term challenges, 30-day, 60-day, 90-day, they're great, but what I often see is, like, oh yeah, I did that program a long time ago, and it worked for me, and then I stopped, and then… then I lost all my results. So that's a common problem, is, like, what happens when the support ends? well, I'll tell you, you haven't built the foundation of habits that's going to sustain you once that support leaves you. Or you're relying too much on somebody writing your exact meal plan out for you, or your exact fitness plan for you.

It does work, and it works for some people to keep going that way, but for most of us, it doesn't, because life gets in the way, challenges get in the way, the society we live in is so fast-paced that that's when people are like, nope, I gotta put myself on the back burner, and guess what? I'll just wait until… my schedule frees up, and then… and then I can start working out again. And do you think that that happens? The schedule lightening up?

Anna Swayne: Anybody in the chat? I'm like, yes, please comment. I can't be the only one who's like, that's me, like, I totally, totally am at fault.

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah, and it's not your fault, and I think that that's the thing people need to recognize, too, is that things have shifted in society. The demands have shifted, the information superhighway has shifted, the access has shifted. And we don't know what to do with it. It's too much. And so, one of the things I do is I help bring people back to themselves.

The other thing that kind of brings… ties this all together is realigning their goals with what time and capacity they actually have. What… what happens is people are like, oh yeah, and when I was 25, I did this workout in the morning, then I went to work, and then I did this at lunch, and then I got done with work, and then I went to this thing, and that's great, and if you're in your 20s, kudos, you know, I applaud you. But as we get older, and we gain more responsibilities, as we climb that corporate ladder, as we get higher positions, the demand increases.

And then as that goes up, ourselves get pushed… down further and further and further until we get to some type of catastrophe down here, whether it's mental… some… a mental breakdown, or some type of burnout, right? We're talking about burnout, like, I just can't do it anymore. a chronic condition develops, they start getting sick. I mean, these things will start to pop up, and… People don't know how to deal with it.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: And they're like, well. now I have these health benefits, and I know I'm supposed to go to the gym, and I know I'm supposed to eat well, but I don't know what to do, and so it's just… that's… that's the cycle that we're in.

Anna Swayne: Well described. I think that really helps set the stage of just, like. you know, I think… and it's probably resonating with… I mean, it's resonating with me, it's probably resonating with a lot on this call around just, like, hey, that… that is just… That's what's happening, and your employees are feeling that, and that means, you know, like you said, burnout.

A mental breakdown. Like, a lot of the outputs then impact their work. So… why do you think that so many… like, so, of course we all want to do something, like, HR, business leaders, it's like, okay, yeah, how can we better support our employees? Why do you think, so many wellness programs go unused? Like, they're… it's not for a lack of, like. and good intentions for wanting to support their employees, knowing that this is the stage at any, you know, any time an employee is going through something like this. If… I like what you said, if they haven't realigned their goals to their capacity, yeah, why do you think so many wellness programs are going unused?

Ariel Hoffman: Well, yes, I agree with all that you said. I think the intention is there, and again, we're dealing with things that, like, may have worked in the past, but are not translating into utilization now. I believe some of the research I've done has pointed towards something like a 33% Average utilization rate on benefits. So, what's happening to the other 77% of the money that the company is spending on these benefits that are going unused?

And so, a few things are happening based on what I observe. One is the confusion that we talked about. And then the other is variables. I think people don't consider the fact that we're not all the same, and we don't want to all do the same thing, right? And we also don't have the same needs, and…

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: you know, So, so what that really means is there needs to be some level of customization.

Anna Swayne: How can you get some customization in there?

Ariel Hoffman: So that, you know. everyone can feel like the benefits are for them, because a lot of times it feels like the benefits is for everybody, and then it's like, this is great, but, like, I'm still not, like, feeling great. I'm still not losing the 20 pounds I know I need to lose, like… I… what am I doing wrong, you know? Or…

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Ariel Hoffman: There's comparison going on. Oh my god, there's so many things. So, there's comparison to other people that they're working with.

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Ariel Hoffman: Susie does marathons on the weekends, and… or is training for marathons. She is, like, super fit, she's amazing. She is, like, a high performer at work, and then, you know, Kate over here is, like. I'm struggling to just get my foot out the door to go on a walk. And then you have all the people in between. And so, when you provide somebody with, like, say, a gym membership.

That's awesome. But, what name did I use? Susie? Susie over here is gonna use that gym to her heart's content, but Kate over here is intimidated by the gym. She doesn't want to go to the gym, she's… doesn't feel comfortable working out in front of other people. Maybe she wants, like, a smaller boutique-type setting, or maybe she wants to learn how to work out in a… place that you feel on display. Like, she needs some extra support. And so that's just one example.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: If that makes any sense.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, I like that. And I think it's really hard for… you know, a lot of other clients we work with are in that same scenario of, like, they have such a diverse workforce. So, you know, there's a great intention to try to create a plan that's gonna fit everybody's needs, but yeah, what do you do when you have such a wide spectrum? So yeah, so I'm curious, like, you know, in your… In your, you know.

Not that you're gonna disclose information about past clients, but have you seen this before? And, like, what are, like, some of the… like, what does it actually take for someone to, you know, essentially set up, alternative options? Or, you know, options that scale this wide, diverse set of needs.

Ariel Hoffman: Like, what have you seen work, or, like… That's a really good question. Well… what I see really working is some type of individual support.

That can't… and guidance. So, I guess to give you an example, when I work with a company, we can structure it in a variety of ways. You know, workshops, a workshop series, that people can kind of listen to on their own. plus, say, some… what I call office hours, where people can come and talk to me on an individual basis, and really tackle that… their specific challenge, and say… and then I can look at it and say, oh, well. this is how you can use this membership, and this is how we're going to create a plan for you. So it's helping them create a plan that incorporates and implements the resources that they have available.

Anna Swayne: Oh, I like that.

Ariel Hoffman: you know, I mean, that's just the space I'm in, so as a health coach myself, that's.

Anna Swayne: Why?

Ariel Hoffman: doing, but there are other ways to do that. you know, But, but I do, I do think… There is a level of individualization that needs to happen.

Anna Swayne: And…

Ariel Hoffman: You know, from a… from a financial standpoint on the company, like, spending that… Capital on individual… some form of that. can make… Huge long-term benefits, so that… that employee, one is, you know, the retention rates are higher, they're more productive, less sick days. happier at work, more collaborative, better focused. Just from, like, a 30-minute conversation. Wow. You know, it can go a really long way. Just getting, like, a couple of tips that somebody can work on for a couple of months.

And then you go back, and you're like, how'd that go for you? And they're like, oh my god, I'm doing it! And now you can take them a step further, that's…

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: That's what's going to be motivating for people. everyone feels, like, lost and in, like, a sea of people, and I think we need to bring it back to human connection, to be honest.

Anna Swayne: You know, I really appreciate that, because it sounds… it's just super clear. You know, it's like taking that level of customization on a plan, you can't just throw the blanket and be like, hey, this is, you know, this is for everybody. It's like, yes. And let's go one layer deeper, it sounds like, and let's look at the customization for each person, because yes, the blanket could be warm for everybody, but, like, it's gonna look a little different for each individual.

Ariel Hoffman: No.

Anna Swayne: taking the time to do that, to, like, I guess maybe create the behavior that they will then use those benefits, or follow the plan is… as…

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: that's available for them? Is that kind of, like, the layer that's disconnecting?

Ariel Hoffman: Yes, and I will add on to that, one of the phrases I use is, we've all heard about, you know, implementing habits and creating new habits. But, one of the things that gets overlooked. Is that you want a habit… what… you know a habit is… is… is sticking when it's automatic. So I like to use that word, automatic, and when I say automatic, it means that it doesn't matter how tired you are, it doesn't matter what you have going on in your life, like, you're like, no, I do this… I do this thing. I do this walk. And there's flexibility around that, but no, I do this thing regardless of how I feel. in, you know, in… Yes. You know what I'm saying, like, obviously, if you're sick, sick, you're not gonna do that.

Anna Swayne: Right.

Ariel Hoffman: But, if you're, like, needing to rest, yes, you guess. what I'm saying is, is, like, a daily ritual, like, if you… if it is not automatic, the minute a challenge comes up, you're gonna slide back into, oh, well, I'll just wait until this passes, or I'll wait until this happens, or I'll wait until, you know, you can just fill in the blank. So… So yeah, that's, that's, I think, One of the main… gaps.

Anna Swayne: Okay. What do you, how do you help your clients, like, kind of make that habit automatic? Is there, like, a framework that you like to use? Is that a secret? Is it your secret sauce you can't share? No.

Ariel Hoffman: to book time.

Anna Swayne: with you to know, but, I'm just curious, like, any… like, because you're absolutely right, like, you know, from a business perspective, an HR perspective, they're like, yes, we have all these great benefits, we want people to use them. Even if you layer in that customization of, like, okay, and you're talking to me, you're like, Anna, you need to do this, this, and this, like. how would I go about making Like, those habits more automatic.

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah, you, you said it yourself, frameworks. And what a framework is… so I have… I have a few frameworks, that are my main strategies for people. And what a framework does is it gives you basically a loose outline of what you're supposed to follow, but there's flexibility within the framework.

So, you know, things do come up. So, you know, you have to account for… some flexibility. And so what that does is, is that helps people escape The rigidity and strictness Of what they think a diet is, and what it's supposed to do for them, and their fitness program. There's… there's a lack of flexibility, and so the minute somebody has to veer off of that plan that they were given. They feel like a failure. They feel like they're falling off the wagon. We all know that phrase. I don't like that phrase anymore. I like to say, pull your wagon to the side of the road, and then get back on.

Anna Swayne: Oh, hey, I like that.

Ariel Hoffman: falling off, you're just readjusting, realigning. You always have to be… what I call assessing. I have this, strategy that I've coined AIP.

And it just stands for Assess. implement and practice. And what that means is you're always performing some type of assessment on yourself.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. What?

Ariel Hoffman: Whether it's daily or weekly or monthly or longer term, you're like, okay, well. how much time do I have this week? How did it feel last week? Is this working? What is working? What isn't working? Okay, I'm logging my food, and I'm noticing this. It's not good or bad. You're gaining information and data, so that then, you can then implement a new change, or a new habit that you're then going to practice. And why I love the word practice is that… and I… and I came up with this idea, too, one day when I was in yoga, and I was having one of those days where I was, like, not… I wasn't feeling my best. I was like, ugh. Like, this just feels… I feel… I was bashing myself, right? And the instructor at the end, she offered her, you know, lovely, positive words, and she said, you guys had a great practice today, and she started talking about practice, and I said, aha! we are a practice. We're always practicing to make ourselves better, to make ourselves feel better. It's okay if something goes wrong, or one day is better than the other, and we oftentimes put way too much pressure on ourselves. I am definitely… A culprit of that.

Anna Swayne: And…

Ariel Hoffman: when you term something a practice, you're allowing yourself to make mistakes. You're allowing yourself to treat it more as, like, an experiment. Like, let's try this, and let's see what comes of it. Oh, I like this! I'm gonna keep practicing this. This is working for me! So…

Anna Swayne: like that.

Ariel Hoffman: There's that flexibility, right? I think… we've grown up, at least I did, as an athlete and a dancer, just with Pure rigidity, and if you broke any of that, you were just worthless. Nope.

Anna Swayne: That's heavy.

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah! Yeah.

Anna Swayne: But when… but that's what I love about this framework, or, you know. really any frameworks just help kind of alleviate that stress of, like, it's got to be perfect. It's like, this is your… it's guiding. Like, it's a framework, and this feels very guiding, you know, assessing, implement, practice. Is that… I get that right? Yes. Yeah, I really like that, because you're right, we do put a lot of pressure on ourselves, I think, as whatever role you have, inside work and outside of work, And so, giving your, kind of, yourself freedom.

To try new things, and call it practice. I mean, you think about athletes, like, I saw the doc… the… I think it was a documentary, the Michael Jordan documentary. I grew up in the 80s, so, like, Michael Jordan was… was the king of basketball, but it was just interesting how he was tucked. He said something like, I missed more free throws than I made them. And it was just like… I mean, we think about him being one of the, you know, one of the greatest basketball players of all time, or he's at least up there. And I was just like, oh, that's so interesting, because, you know, he… he didn't make all the shots. Like, I think… I think growing up, I had this, even in my mind, of like, oh, he just… he's perfect at it. He's the greatest basketball player. No, he still missed shots, too, and it's… that's why you practice.

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: Because sometimes you're gonna miss them, and sometimes you're gonna make them, and like… and that's okay. I think, Yeah, I really like that. And for well-being, like, you know, finding out what works, sometimes it's not gonna be… like, I tried yoga once, and I wasn't very good at it.

Ariel Hoffman: You did.

Anna Swayne: I tried yoga, yeah, and I was… I didn't think… I wasn't very good at it, and I was like, okay, maybe this isn't for me. But that's okay, because, you know, according to this framework. You just try it, and it gives you that element of, like, is this gonna work for me or not?

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah. And you practice it again, maybe you practice a different type of yoga.

Anna Swayne: Yes!

Ariel Hoffman: better.

Anna Swayne: Yes.

Ariel Hoffman: And I'll tell you all a secret. I… I actually… there was a period where I hated yoga. I…

Anna Swayne: Sure.

Ariel Hoffman: thoroughly disliked it. I mean, with a passion. And this was when I lived in New York City. I lived there for 14 years, I was a professional dancer, I… Was just on the go all the time, and… yoga was too slow for me. I was like, I can't… this is just breathing? Breathing and breathing? Interesting. No. I just want to be dancing. Just give me great.

Anna Swayne: Smooth, and yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: I don't want to be here. It was… I… it was at a point in my life, too, where I didn't really like being in a hot room. I just didn't… I wasn't there, you know? And it wasn't working for me. And… I had friends that loved it. I had friends that became yoga instructors, you know, I was a… I became a personal trainer, but I was like, no, yoga? Can't do it. I also… there were, like, poses and things in there that I was like, why can't I do that? I'm a dancer, I'm supposed to be flexible. Why can't I do that? And I became very judgy on myself. Which is totally not the point.

Anna Swayne: Right. You know this?

Ariel Hoffman: And… So… one of the catalysts in my life was getting a really bad hip injury, and I had to have surgery, and prognosis was good, and it went really well, but, like, a lot of things changed in my life after that, like how much I beat up my body, and learning to listen to my body, and the recovery time, and what I could do versus not do. Wow. my value tied to my physical being, and how I questioned it, and, like, what do I have to offer the world if I can't, like, dance and, like. perform? Like, what do I do? Community Crisis, number one.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: And… yoga, I started doing yoga at that point in my recovery, because it was one of the only things I could do. And… I just… had a totally different perspective. I was like, okay, this, you know, I gotta take it easy, I can't push myself, like, all these things that I didn't know how to do.

Anna Swayne: New chapter, yeah, new chapter for you. And…

Ariel Hoffman: the rest was history, and now I actually really love yoga, and I'm not… I don't think I'm wonderful at it. I still go into those classes, and people are doing crow pose, and all that.

Anna Swayne: Ugh.

Ariel Hoffman: crazy things, and I'm like, maybe one day.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: But, You know what, I just sometimes sit in child pose, child's pose, and the instructor says, that's okay. So I say, okay, you go do that crazy handstand thingy. Yeah. I'm just gonna stretch here. breathe, and I can't wait for Shavasana, you know?

Anna Swayne: Oh, that's a great story. Try, give it another.

Ariel Hoffman: story.

Anna Swayne: Because, well, it's true, like, you know, sometimes, even if you were, like, really good at it, some days you're just not gonna do all of it. Yeah. I think, yeah, back to… assessing where you're at and what you need. Okay, so… Okay, we set the stage, we all understand the problems, and what, you know, HR leaders are up against. Us as individuals are up against, because we're also fighting it. I don't think a lot of employees, and I'll put my employee hat on for a second, I don't expect HR to, like. Come up with all these, you know, specific ways to help me understand and use my benefits. But I know that that's important, and so what would you… what's kind of your recommendation, or… What have you seen work in the past of, like, how companies can, you know, move beyond just Offering discounts, or stipends, or… Different programs and offer real support that actually helps employees make a change. Practice more often.

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah, I think some type of longer-term option. You know, I have seen a shift in what HRs… HR leaders and… and… Employees are offering in terms of mental health. And…

Anna Swayne: Okay.

Ariel Hoffman: I think that's really great, because, like, I was talking to this one company not too long ago, and He was really proud of how they really offer a lot of support For mental health, for their employees. resource, and I think that's the thing that HR people can do, is… Have a list of those resources, of those people, curate a list of… coaches, practitioners, the ones who can be more hands-on, and then that way, you know, of course it's not your job to tell them how to implement those things. That really isn't your responsibility. But I think providing those resources in a more curated fashion can also really help take away the overwhelm and confusion for people. Like, you know, when it comes to… like, maybe you can categorize it… I'm kind of going off on an idea here, but maybe some type of categorization where, you know. okay, we've already got the people that we know use this stuff, okay? We're not really going to worry too much about them, but then you've got kind of the people in the middle. Okay, well, we have these options for you, but now we've got, We've got a list of practitioners who we've maybe vetted, so that's another thing you can do. You can vet certain professionals, and then that way, when you hand out this list, you guys know there's no question about, you know, are they gonna help me or not? So I think…

Anna Swayne: Are they… are they good? Yeah. Are they legit?

Ariel Hoffman: I like that.

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Ariel Hoffman: And, you know, people mesh with different personalities, so it's really good to have different options. Like, not everyone's gonna mesh with me, and that's okay. I don't take it personally. Also, men and women are very different, you know, so…

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Ariel Hoffman: There's a VAT to account for. you know. I think when we're talking about any type of health, whether it's mental health or physical health, it's actually quite personal, and people don't take that into consideration, which is why this whole generalizing the offers is lacking is because, you know, how often are you talking to your colleague about how crappy you feel? Like…

Anna Swayne: maybe some drama, I don't know, it depends on how close you are with somebody, but like…

Ariel Hoffman: How often are you telling them how you really feel about your body, and what you like and don't like, and what's working and what's not working, and why you feel like crap? like… Who are you telling that to? So, it's a very personal thing, kind of like mental health. If someone's struggling mentally, they need that Therapist or psychologist to… To… to offer a safe space, where they can really just… Unload. And then get some advice on what the next steps are.

Anna Swayne: I like that. So, curating a list of resources just cuts the… you know, that step down for employees. It makes it faster for them to be like, oh, I know exactly who I… here's my options. Yep. I'm gonna pick… wherever the specialty is, and move on. Yeah, I like that a lot, because again, it's just… it's taking it… it's taking the offers, or the options, the programs, and giving it one step further for those who… who need it. Yeah, I like that.

Ariel Hoffman: Same with… that can apply to all these different apps and online offerings, too. So, you know, whether it's an in-person option.

Anna Swayne: Oh, yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: An online option to have those differentiated now, because again, there's just too many options.

Anna Swayne: Seriously, too many apps.

Ariel Hoffman: it down, you know? Because, again, people's time is limited, and, you know, I think… I think just that step will help people feel… employees feel so much more supported.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. Have you seen, You know, it's kind of hard, like, it really depends on the company and how diverse their employee base is, but have you seen certain things work in evaluating, like, what options or programs should be given to employees to help them with their well-being? Have you seen any, like, trends in… I know it's… I don't want it to make that cookie-cutter, like, question, but, like, I am curious, like, yeah, if you've seen trends on… on that.

Ariel Hoffman: I have. I think what worked… I think that's a really great question. It's a broad question. But what I've seen work the best is kind of one of the… apparently it's like a marketing tool that people use, is test your market. Ask your market.

Anna Swayne: Oh, yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: Provide surveys on, like. You know, and pretty detailed surveys, you know, of course, things that won't take maybe an hour, but, you know.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: Framing it in a way of, like, we really want to provide, Benefits, wellness benefits that you will use We want you to use them. What is it that you are looking for? What is it that you need? What do you like? What do you not like? Like, get granular in those questions, and I feel like people will tell you. And then you can go from there. So I think surveys can be a very useful tool.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. Yeah, we use a lot of surveys for… for just that, you know, to try to identify, because I think, you know, you mentioned some earlier of just, like, you know, HR and businesses, they spend a lot of money to invest in these programs, and you wanted to use it, and, you know, you were saying that 30-70 split.

Ariel Hoffman: Like…

Anna Swayne: 30% in that scenario, you know, it's not gonna fit for everybody's needs, but surveys often can help uncover some of that. Well, okay, so if companies are investing a lot in wellness, how does HR insure those dollars are actually turning into real outcomes. I think that's one of our challenges, like, as we guide clients through, like, here's some options to, like, provide X, Y, and Z based on the survey data, here's some options.

I'm curious, like, what have you seen, or what you would advise HR leaders on… or how to measure that, or what have you seen worked to measure that in the past?

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah, so I've actually utilized just that. in… and I'll approach company, and… you know. I'll help the… I'll let them tell me what metrics they use to measure their productivity. Some companies have a vast… Answer, and other companies have one or two things.

Anna Swayne: Okay.

Ariel Hoffman: But measuring productivity, right? Like, how do you as a company measure the productivity level of your employees, so there's, like, that metric. You also have, you know, sick days. And you also have retention rates. I know retention rates, is actually a big one. A couple of companies I spoke to said one of our goals is to retain as many employees as possible, because… You lose money every time you onboard a new person, and…

Anna Swayne: significant.

Ariel Hoffman: a significant amount.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: And then, if they leave after a short period of time, you know, that's a loss. So, how do you… how do you measure that, right? How do you measure the change in retention rates, productivity rates? Let me see if I can offer an example from productivity. I guess I'll use… I'll use sales teams as an example, because it's pretty.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: Right? So sales teams and companies have numbers they have to reach, right? They're oftentimes, they might be making money off commissions as well, and so they're always aiming for numbers. And one company I worked with, we actually we actually measured their productivity and the amount of sales. And I took a small group, this was actually part of my beta test. So I took a small group of sales… a sales team. And we had a control group, and we had a test group. And we measured them against each other. They didn't… I mean, they didn't know that.

Anna Swayne: love this.

Ariel Hoffman: But it was a way for the company to see, okay, this is the team that worked with Ariel more individually, and got kind of a more hands-on approach, and this is the group that, didn't.

Anna Swayne: And…

Ariel Hoffman: The numbers were really interesting. And, I mean, you always have it within those teams, and I might be… Stop me if I'm, like, getting off track in it.

Anna Swayne: No, this is fascinating, because I think this is a good example of, like, why it's so important to take the time to evaluate not just offering the programs, but, like, getting your return and investment, so to speak.

Ariel Hoffman: What? So, you always have, like, your top performers, and you always have, you know, the performers at the bottom who have some ways to go. There's always just those people, right?

Anna Swayne: Yep.

Ariel Hoffman: So, usually, you kind of… take the top performers and kind of put them in their own group, because, you know, you're not going to see much difference there. So you really want to take this, like, middle chunk of people.

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Ariel Hoffman: And the numbers were astonishing. After putting this one group through a two-month program that I implemented. There was, like, a 20%… between 18% to 20% increase in their sales numbers.

Anna Swayne: Wow.

Ariel Hoffman: It was pretty, pretty significant.

Anna Swayne: That is very significant.

Ariel Hoffman: why they felt better. So, for… let's start from basic, okay? They were moving their body more, so they were less sedentary, they were starting to cut out the junk food. So they just decreased the amount of junk food that they were consuming on a daily basis. The other thing, too, is a lot of times sales… people in sales are on the phone a lot, so they're sedentary a lot of the time.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, yep.

Ariel Hoffman: So it was another reason why this group was really important, and… So… They started feeling… Just more energized at times in the day that they would normally have a slump. So, the.

Anna Swayne: Most.

Ariel Hoffman: Sales actually dropped off, like, kind of after lunch into the evening.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: That latter part of the day.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, I can see that.

Ariel Hoffman: a month, it happens.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: Your brain starts getting tired, all that stuff. And it was really interesting that their numbers had increased during that time period in the day.

Anna Swayne: Oh, so not… oh, interesting.

Ariel Hoffman: They were feeling better, they didn't have an energy slump, because they weren't eating, like, a heavy lunch, they were eating more salads. They were working in some type of movement more, whether it was a daily walk or maybe some intense exercise. There was incorporate… there was a movement portion. And it wasn't… it wasn't so drastic that these people couldn't stick with it. And… They're… they're starting to… their mental focus, that's what I wanted to say. Their mental focus is improving, too, because when you start to feel better, you're more energized, your body's working better, your metabolism.

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Ariel Hoffman: better. You're gaining some muscle strength, so that's our metabolic Machine, so now you're burning calories while you're sitting down, type thing, at a better rate. And now your mental focus, you're more clear. So now you're… you're on fire, you're making those sales, you're, like, closing.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, you feel better.

Ariel Hoffman: If you're feeling good. And you're motivated.

Anna Swayne: And.

Ariel Hoffman: it just… that's the snowball effect. And then, actually, I have a little diagram here that I'm working on, like.

Anna Swayne: Oh yeah, she'll love it.

Ariel Hoffman: it's a… it's the ripple effect. So, imagine, like, a bullseye point, and then ripples, one circle, and then another circle. So you start with the center, which is you, and now you're starting to feel better, and now your impact is that now your mental focus starts to get better, right? You're starting.

Anna Swayne: seem to…

Ariel Hoffman: So, like. mental focus, you're starting to feel a bit more energy, you're a little happier, and then that takes you to the next ripple, and now you're making better decisions, you're making them faster, you're not… on things, you're just… your brain is firing better. Then, the next level up, the next ripple, is your productivity now is changing. You're getting more efficient. At all of these things. And then what does that do? The next ripple is… success, right? You're… you're contributing to the success of the company, the team. the bottom line, everybody wins. So that's sort of the direction of everything.

Anna Swayne: I just drew that out for myself, by the way.

Ariel Hoffman: Yay!

Anna Swayne: Don't put it on the sticky.

Ariel Hoffman: This is my.

Anna Swayne: Oh, I love it!

Ariel Hoffman: See, exactly.

Anna Swayne: But that's such a great visual… it's tangible to what you're talking about. It helps just put it into perspective for people of, like. Oh, yeah, it's not just this one thing you're measuring. I mean, from a business perspective, yes, you're looking at retention, productivity, etc, but I think for HR and for business leaders who are talking about the programs and the outputs. of these programs, a visual like that's really nice, because it's like. To… sometimes, you have to, like, bring leadership on board, because this might be an extra expense, or an additional expense, or just continue the expense, of, like, where that impact can happen, where the results can happen when done right.

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah. I can make this look pretty for you, I can send it to you, and then you can.

Anna Swayne: Oh my gosh, yes. Well, I think we should write a blog after this from our chat, because there's, I mean, between a lot of these different quotes, the AIP. framework.

Ariel Hoffman: It does!

Anna Swayne: this bullseye, I think everybody online who's with, still with us, yeah, we will… we'll post this out, so…

Ariel Hoffman: Cool.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, cause, you know, that's really interesting. Sometimes I think there, is an element of, You know, for this scenario, you're, you know, you took a sales team, you split them up, you actually measured key factors, and then these individuals actually made a difference, and… in their own personal lives. See, this is what's interesting to me, and maybe not so much the business, but, like, when you are better, the center, yeah, you're getting better at work, and that's really great for this example, but just think of, like, what a better person they are showing up in their personal lives.

Ariel Hoffman: Absolutely.

Anna Swayne: And, you know, with families and relationships, like, it just all… it all, ripples in that way as well, not just for the business and success for the business, though that is why we're here and talking about that. I think the… the thing that's good for me is to see the individual just change. And get better. Personally. So, okay. Alright, so I love those ROI, those metrics to truly measure outcomes, and I would say, like, you know, when you meet with companies, like. you know. taking the time to do it. Like, how did you help people get on board with taking the time to actually do a test like this? Because, in theory, I'm like, that's cool. But in practice, I'm like, that takes time. I mean, I'm sure you had to, like… you know, meet with the leadership team and… or the HR team, and be like, okay, this, you know, laying out the plan. I don't know, any… any key takeaways there for HR leaders who are listening to, like, maybe how they would approach,

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah, I mean, it wasn't easy, I'm going to be honest. You know, and I think the space I work in I was sharing this with a colleague of mine, like, people don't really know what they don't know, you know, so…

Anna Swayne: That's true.

Ariel Hoffman: No, it's like…

Anna Swayne: Very true.

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah, I had to put together a presentation, and I do have a presentation deck, and, you know, a lot of diagrams, and… But I think once people see the steps, and, like, it's really outlined for them, and then they see how much time it actually saves them in the end, those are usually the.

Anna Swayne: People that jump.

Ariel Hoffman: on board, and it sounds complicated, but, you know, there are steps, like, as in anything. You know, you start with… we'll start with, like, a wellness benefits audit, right? Like, what do you offer? Okay, well, I will go, I will take them, this list that you have, and I will see what you have. And maybe I meet with you, maybe I meet with, like, the HR leader. I'm not meeting with the CEO yet, right? So how do we preserve the… the… the time that people need to do their work, and how do we make the most use of it, right? So it's meeting with the people in their company strategically. I think that's… that's… that was one thing.

Which is, I think, why I'm so grateful to be here talking to HR leaders, because you are the people that, that, I mean, you guys really drive… drive the ship in that department in important ways, and I'm so appreciative of that, and I love having these conversations with you, so… That's an invitation. For anybody listening, I'm happy to talk to you. And do a benefits audit.

Anna Swayne: Okay. Right, so kind of we start there, and then…

Ariel Hoffman: And then there's, you know, depending on the company, you know, I have to structure it maybe slightly different, but You know, there's a visual, there's a slide. They see the steps, and they're like, okay, after this, then we do this, and then after 30 days, we re-evaluate. So, I mean, the time… Spent could be, and yes, putting together some surveys and, gathering that information, you know, maybe that's Time-capped, right? you know, then there's, okay, after this period of time, what are we gonna do in that period of time? I'll help structure that out. Whether that's just a workshop series, or it's a combination of things. you know, you get to decide. So, you know, I think it sounds like it's really time-consuming, but it actually really isn't. Once you have these, Metrics in place, and you have the surveys in place. It… it runs pretty smoothly. a lot of information from it, so… I like that. It's hugely beneficial.

Anna Swayne: At the end of…

Ariel Hoffman: either 2 months… I usually… I usually work with people for a minimum of 6 months, so usually at that 6-month mark is, like, a re-evaluation, like. how did we do? How's everybody doing? Sometimes people will then sign on for longer, because they're like, oh, this is working, and actually, you know, let's move this to a different team, and let's try this. So people… companies can start small, they can start with, like, one team, they can start with one group, and then go to another group. And that's the great thing, too. about… say, an offering like mine, I have a digital offering as well, and it's evergreen, so whoever jumps on board, whatever time they jump on board, there's a community available.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: company, community only. So there, there's so many… ways to make it super efficient, and I mean, I'm all about that, so…

Anna Swayne: Yes, and that's one of your… Ripples.

Ariel Hoffman: Yay!

Anna Swayne: more efficient. I am big on efficiency. I think that's… yeah, there's no worth… no reason to do something if it's, yeah, if you can't be efficient and create some kind of output. But I like… I like the setup there of the expectation around 6 months. I think sometimes we abandon You know, things. we're like, it's not working after a few months, because adoption takes a while. Like, I'm thinking about some of the clients we have where we roll out a new wellness program, whether it's, like, a 30-day challenge, or, you know, it's a… it's a partner that we have that helps, you know, like, give access to gym memberships or something like that, and we see it takes time to adopt.

Ariel Hoffman: Guys.

Anna Swayne: And then… Like, back to, you know, one of your original points of making a habit automatic, that takes time, too. And hopefully by, you know, because we work in annual cycles for employee benefits, you know, sometimes it takes, like, a full year, so not to quickly abandon you know, certain things. If an HR… if you were talking to an HR leader, like, well, you are, you still are, you're still talking to all of us, what would you say, like, if… if you… I guess, kind of as a wrap-up here, because I know we're running out of time, And maybe we'll have you on again, because we can do a part two.

Ariel Hoffman: Love that.

Anna Swayne: What would you say, like, okay, they have, you know, certain wellness programs, or they have certain things going on, they're trying to, give employees really great offerings for them to change and be better. without launching a whole new program. Like, what would be, like, one little thing they could try today to, like. I don't know. Restart, reduce their employees. Are you talking about this?

Ariel Hoffman: Are you talking about HR leaders?

Anna Swayne: That's right, like, what's supportive, like, what could they do today just to kind of, like, I don't know, make some, make some changes, or without rolling out a whole new program, okay? Like, the scenario is, I'm an HR leader, I have several programs today, but it's like. how can I, like, make better use of them? Or how can I, like, communicate better value of the offerings? Without having to, like.

Ariel Hoffman: Do a bunch of other stuff.

Anna Swayne: Like, maybe it's not time to run a survey yet, or do an audit, or, you know, something like that. It's just like a… Quick… A quick win they could try.

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah, I mean, I would say… One suggestion that comes to mind, let me see if I can put this into words… I sometimes have complicated ideas. something that comes to mind is… like… I don't know, implementing some type of, like, weekly wellness tip that you can email your team.

Anna Swayne: Like, and just start your company. Oh, yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: You're like, here are the wellness tips of the week, and it can be super simple, like. did you walk today, or walk 3 times this week? You can walk with a girlfriend, or a friend, or…

Anna Swayne: Do something?

Ariel Hoffman: Get outside. Make sure you guys get outside this week, if the weather is still nice. I know you're… you are in Salt Lake City, so I'm sure the weather.

Anna Swayne: Oops. It is, but today's so nice, so yes, I think I'm gonna do that. Go ahead. From a friend, go for a walk.

Ariel Hoffman: Maybe encourage people to do walking meetings. Oh, hey, you guys have meetings.

Anna Swayne: Why don't you take it outside?

Ariel Hoffman: Why don't you go for.

Anna Swayne: Yes.

Ariel Hoffman: It's…

Anna Swayne: A one-on-one.

Ariel Hoffman: Right? We all do lunch meetings, but how can we switch it up? How can we, like, you know, why don't you go… Grab a smoothie, and go for a walk, and have your meeting on a walk. I… Oh, I like that. I love doing walk and… I call them walk and talks. Actually…

Anna Swayne: Walk and talks, I like…

Ariel Hoffman: walk and talk, and so I…

Anna Swayne: I like that.

Ariel Hoffman: So, walk and talk.

Anna Swayne: Especially for, yeah, remote meeting, or remote teams. Like, yeah. Go outside.

Ariel Hoffman: One thing I will say, depending on the company, where you're at, but I would say the snacks that are offered You guys can… can do a… have a really quick win there by offering Some healthier alternatives to some of the often The… the foods that are often put out.

And I can… I can put together a list for you.

Anna Swayne: Oh, yes, well, let's put it in our post.

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah, I could…

Anna Swayne: together.

Ariel Hoffman: Share with you that list, but, you know, instead of sugary snacks and, and, you know. donuts being brought to the office. Yes, those treats are fine, I'm all for indulgences and treats, and my whole thing about managing your indulgences. I'm all for it.

But, you know, I've seen, I've seen some of these companies, like, kitchens, and I'm like, mmm…

Anna Swayne: Hey, yeah.

Ariel Hoffman: to be grabbing. But, you know, it's out of sight, out of mind, you know?

Anna Swayne: Yes.

Ariel Hoffman: stress, they have habits, right? So, how can you guys as a company invest in Providing some better snacks and foods.

Anna Swayne: That's a great tip. I… I think it's that consistency, too, of, you know. like you said, out of sight, out of mind. Sometimes people don't know what they don't know, but just, like, engaging in a way that… where you're leaving a tip… I love the weekly tip idea, then it's just, like, a regular routine of, like, oh yeah, I need to remember that, or I need to do… X, Y, and Z, and not maybe once a month, because I've seen that, and it's like, you totally forget it.

Ariel Hoffman: gotten… Yeah.

Anna Swayne: Take care of yourself.

Ariel Hoffman: rate on, like.

Anna Swayne: I forgot about that.

Ariel Hoffman: on Monday morning, when you come into the office and you're checking some emails, right? That's, like, the first thing people do is check their emails, and then they see, you know, Anna's lovely wellness tip for the week. really set people up, right? And yeah, it's the cons… they need to be… people need to be reminded. It's true. We've got a lot going on.

Anna Swayne: You have a lot going on, but even more to take care of yourself.

Ariel Hoffman: Yes.

Anna Swayne: And then so having that, yeah, opportunity to reinforce the wellness programs that you do offer with You know, other weekly tips to just keep it top of mind, and give people permission they can take care of themselves. I think… I think back to your original confusion at the beginning of setting the stage of, like, people are so confused, it's like, I don't know what to do, and it's like, well, actually. this… this… these couple things first. You know, these little things actually create, bigger automatic habits, so…

Ariel Hoffman: Yeah, and I think it's important to know that you're… the people that work for you want… I mean, unless it's, like. a really terrible job that you really don't want, but, like, I think oftentimes what I hear is that people really like what they're doing, and they want to perform well. They want to be motivated.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. And…

Ariel Hoffman: You know, how can you support them in that?

Anna Swayne: Yeah, exactly. Well, you've given us some really good insight. I do hope you come back. I'm excited, for us to do a co-author blog. We'll post this on our website, so if you didn't have a chance to listen to the whole thing, or you want to listen again, or share with a friend, we'll send that out. But, Ariel, it's been amazing to have you. It's been a fun conversation. I've learned a lot. I'm gonna realign my goals with my capacity.

Ariel Hoffman: Right now.

Anna Swayne: Right now. I took so many notes, I'm like, yes. okay, I need to do this. So, okay, well, thank you. If you… for those of you still on, if you haven't joined our community, you can continue the chat there. Ariel, if you want to join us at our… in our community, Change Agents, it's Nava's HR Community, just where people… HR pros go to talk and swap tips and tricks and… continue to have conversations about, you know, wellness programs. So, please, go there and register if you're not a part of that. And please join us for our next webinar. We have one coming up, I think it's next week. Adam will drop in the reg, for that, but it's basically HR leaders, turning advocacy into influence in the C-suite. So, we hear this a lot of, like, how do you have influence? Arielle, you talked about it a little bit today, like, hey, if you want to do something and influence your C team, what are the different strategies and frameworks to do that? So, join us next week for that, or catch the recording, after.

Thanks, everybody, thanks for joining us, so glad you were here, and we hope you join us next time. Thanks, Ariel!

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