What the chapter on connection misses about moving beyond transactional leadership.

Anna Swayne: All right. Hello, everybody, and welcome to missing chapters. So glad you're here, so glad you're joining us. So thanks for taking the time while we wait for people to join, would love.

If anyone wants to tell us where they're dialing in from where they're zooming in from. Put it in the chat. We'd love to hear it, Kylie, I don't even know where you're calling in from. I forgot to ask you.

Kylie Ensrud: I am in Lincoln, Nebraska, right in the middle of.

Anna Swayne: Oh!

Kylie Ensrud: Everywhere, not nowhere, everywhere.

Anna Swayne: Yes, very nice. Okay, that's we got a few coming in southeast Missouri. Yes. Oh, good! Hey, Jacob? Yes, so glad you're here. Long time.

Fan of Jacobs, Los Angeles. Awesome. I'm calling in from Salt Lake City, Utah, so it is a nice spring day here, like the weather is perfect like, not too hot, not too cold. And we're actually having spring like things are blossoming. What about you, Kylie? Like you having a good day over there?

Kylie Ensrud: We're kind of on the edge of a lot of storms. So the folks to the east of us and a little bit southeast have been getting really bad severe storms. So we're a little bit on the east of that or west of that. But yeah, green apple trees budding. It's just.

Anna Swayne: Love, that.

Kylie Ensrud: Love it. Yes.

Anna Swayne: Yes, yes, yes, love it. Okay. Connecticut. Glenn Mills. All right. Yes, Phil, the Philly area. Yeah. If you're just joining us. Please put in the chat where you're zooming in from. We'd love to know what part of the country you're you're joining us from, and thank you all for joining. We are very glad you're here. So glad to have Kylie. You guys are in for a real treat. Talk about having an expert and learn from an expert today. Kylie is one that I'm very excited to introduce you to, and to ask some hard questions, some easy questions I don't know. We'll see. We'll see where this goes. But if you're new to this series, this series is all about. So our series is a monthly Webinar series called Missing Chapters. and it's this opportunity where we can kind of pull out topics that maybe didn't get into the handbook and discuss them share some really cool experiences so that we all can learn together. And so today's topic, Kylie, thank you so much for joining us is all about leadership. And so I'm really excited to dive into that and like how we can think about it. And what kind of trends we're seeing today and really dive into the fact that, like, you know, maybe some resistance is happening with leadership today and leaders not being super comfortable with. you know, connecting with their employees. And how do we? How do we handle that as Hr leaders. So I'm the host. But really Kylie's the star. So just quickly. I'm Anna.

I've been at Nava for a year, and I'm so glad Kylie's here, because, again, talking about an expert in the field. she is going to kind of walk us through and give us some thoughts around this idea of transaction leadership, and how we can learn how to be better leaders. So, Kylie, please introduce us to you.

Kylie Ensrud: So nice to meet everybody. Thank you for those those that are joining. I started Hr. A long, long time ago over, you know 20, almost 25 years ago and worked in any capacity from, you know, employee benefits to employee relations to been an executive. Now for about 15 years as a chief people officer, and you know, with that kind of C-suite level. And I got my doctorate degree in technically leadership. And for you know innovation. But focus really was on the the neuroscience of team behavior. And and what really drives what really drives team performance from a neurological standpoint. And so anytime I get to kind of share that information from the from the science standpoint. It's it's really fun for me, because it's things that make a lot of sense, but that we don't always know how to. You call brain hacks almost. We don't know how to hack it all the time. And because we're still humans. And there's all these components that play into it. So much of my, my recent life work has been really studying the neuroscience of team dynamics and team behaviors which to me, leadership is never a hierarchical thing. It's a you know. If you have followers and you can inspire and make a difference. You're you're a great leader in a lot of ways. And so that really applies to to anybody in any situation. And so it's always fun to look at it at balance.

Anna Swayne: Didn't I tell you guys expert here super excited, you kind of have like this nice mix of you know the science, the experience, and then framing it into. You know how Hr. Leaders can can learn and and then help their people. So let's jump into it. And if you're just joining us. Please put in the chat where you're calling in from, or if you've got questions and you want to ask Kylie. Live, please also put those in the chat. We'd love to hear them. And so glad you're here.

Okay, so yes, we're going to talk all about leadership today. You just heard from Kylie, you know her background. This is why it's so important to us to have her on today. Okay, Kylie, let's kick it off. And as we think about leadership and where we want to start here. I thought, you know, we could start with just like, kind of outlining what you know, what is trans actual leadership, so to speak, like when we say that word, what does that really mean? And why do you think leaders kind of default to that at work like as a safety.

Kylie Ensrud: Yeah. Yeah. So when how I would define it. There's this, probably a lot of ways you could. How I define transactional leadership really is those moments in passing where it's focused on the tact, the tactical is it a kpi? Is it a number? Is it an update? Is it a process? Is it an interaction to serve solely the purpose of one piece of information? Or maybe you know, a couple of pieces of information versus, you know transformational interactions which take a lot more brain power because you're engaging in a conversation or information or engaging on a level that that activates different parts of your brain, and so.

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Kylie Ensrud: The reason that the reason that often leaders by default engage in transactional leadership. And we always say we're, you know, we're going a million miles an hour throughout the day, just doing our thing. It's actually just easier for our brains. It! We don't have to engage in emotion. We don't have to think it's a very specific like I'm after this piece of information. Here's what I need.

So our brains are are really trained to be as efficient as possible, it becomes uncomfortable cognitively. For us it takes energy to do that. And so by default, our brains are sort of just launching us into these transactional patterns because it's it's easiest for us. And so it cognitively takes more effort to really stop and and engage sort of that. The social network part of the brain that says. Let's let's have a conversation. Let's engage in our emotions a little more in that touchy, feely emotions. But just more than Hey, can I have? You know, the latest revenue number? Empathy takes a lot more cognitive effort. And so, which is sort of I don't wanna say, robots, we're not. But our brains don't want to use energy. So they're gonna that's right. No, by default, not to. And it takes a lot more effort to be really engaged with somebody.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, that that makes sense. It's it's it seems like it seems when you say it, it makes so much sense. But in practice you're like.

Yeah, when your boss is like, Hey, go, do this thing. Or without saying, Hello! How are you today? You kind of like, wait a minute. Can't you be human for a minute? So yeah, that's that's really interesting about our brains.

Kylie Ensrud: Okay.

Anna Swayne: Now. And now we're gonna you know, we'll go throughout this whole talk about how do we get better at that? But that's a really great way to set that up. And now, you know, let's train our brains so to to kind of put some more like framing around that can you kind of share a moment in your career when, like that deeper connection with a colleague or employee like change the outcome of the situation just to set us up with this idea.

Kylie Ensrud: Yeah, there's I've I've been. I've been very fortunate in my career early in my career, and and later in my career. early on in my career. I was probably 2223 I won't say how old I am now, not to date myself, but I worry a lot when I speak, because this this this gentleman probably changed my or did change the whole trajectory of my career. And that's not putting it lightly. He was somebody that really cared. and and could have a a difficult conversation from a place of kindness, and wanting to see somebody else inspired, and and do well. And so when you're 2223, you get into a role. I'm like, I gotta prove myself I'm I'm gonna do a good job.

I'm ambitious, anyway, you know. So, couple, that with my extroverted nature, I I just talked a lot in meetings. I had a lot of ideas. It was always, you know me throwing out ideas, or I had to talk, and I didn't listen a lot in all of that, and didn't really realize it. and at that age didn't step back long enough to pause, and so he pulled me aside one day, and he said.

Kylie, nobody likes you. and I was like, Okay, well, that's harsh. And he did. I mean he. He might have said it a little kinder, but not too much, and he said, but I have to tell you this because I can see the passion, and I can see your intent is to do a great job. But it's really rubbing others the wrong way, because it's you know I'm a know it all, or I have to have the last word, whatever you know it was. and I went home, and I just remember crying so hard because well, number one, that was not how I it, you know, looking out at myself, I would have envisioned it, because that was not my intent. but it was also a moment of that's not who who I am or who I want to be so. Why am I behaving that way? But then the other part was how amazing that I had somebody that cared about me that much.

Anna Swayne: You know he's probably in his fifties at the time to take this.

Kylie Ensrud: Young college grad aside and say, Hey. I'm trying to help you because I see potential in you that to me is a transformational relationship.

He could have very easily. Just let me annoy my coworkers. You know, I I wasn't doing anything wrong. I just wasn't gonna have close relationships at work. But I got promoted. A year later I started listening, which we all know. As you get older you get a little wiser and hopefully we all listen a little more than when we're younger. It it was a moment in my career that I don't know that I'd be where I am right now had it not been for him caring enough to get past the work transactions and and really set me aside and have that moment with me.

And then the other one I had later in correct my career. Here's still a a very dear friend of mine work with him to this day. We've worked together about 1011 years and been a CEO in a lot of capacities with me.

Oh, my gosh! And he's he's probably not on here, so I'm not going to worry about it too much. But when I 1st started working with him for the 1st month, I'm like, I'm going to quit this job. I can't stand him. He's, you know, completely different personality, super smart, though, and I kept a leadership journal and still do to this day. And so I'd write my emotions down like he made me. I'm going to quit this job. He didn't listen. Blah blah, and I go back and reflect. Well, there was always a pattern that happened. I'm like he's challenging me all the time. I don't like that. My ideas are being challenged in my space because he wasn't in Hr. He was like, stop challenging my ideas. And it wasn't about him at all. But he just challenged me. And I, through the leadership journal, I realized like, Oh, this is this is my pattern of behavior.

But, more importantly, 10 or 11 years later we have found such a trusting relationship in one another that I never question his intent when he's giving me information to help me. You know he's gonna be my truth broker, that person that comes to me and says, Hey, this is a blind spot for you, or it's not working like. Did you know this? Or he knows my good days, my bad days. What makes me tick? What doesn't?

And it's always coming from such a place of trust and integrity.

To have that has been really invaluable, because as humans, we're always, I think, by nature, we just want to provide value and care for others. But it's hard to hear things that go against, maybe what we view of ourselves, or we get defensive. It's sort of a mechanism. You can kind of feel it in your tummy. So when you can find those people that doesn't sort of create those reactions in you. Those are the the sort of transformational interactions that can completely change who you are as a not just a leader, but as a person.

And hold on to hold on to them tight. Because and sometimes you don't even know they're there. They're just a feeling it's like, oh, he told me something really hard, and I'm like, well, calm about it. Instead of

Anna Swayne: Ha!

Kylie Ensrud: Oh. so that's a long, winded answer. But I just both of those gentlemen deserve a lot of credit for who they are, as people and and leaders that have really helped shape me as a leader as well.

Anna Swayne: That's so awesome because it also helps not it just kind of helps frame what we're talking about here, as far as like transactional leadership versus the transformational leadership. And how easy it is back to your original statement with your brain! How easy it is just to fall into that transactional. But these 2 actually took it one step further, maybe sounds like the last example. You had to do a little work there, too, because.

Kylie Ensrud: Yeah, I was. I was about 20 years older. So that helped. But.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. But how good that is to like even frame it. Like, let's classify what's happening here and then, and then let's break it down as we talk through like what this means. But I don't want to skip over the leadership journal that.

Yeah, really cool. I think that's a great tip for all of us. Tell us more.

Kylie Ensrud: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: That started. And yeah, why, that's been so valuable for you.

Kylie Ensrud: I'm glad you. I thank you for bringing that up. People development and in coaching. And I'm like, just hear me out. Folks just try.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, I, wanna try it.

Kylie Ensrud: Internal but no, a leadership journal, and I've never known what else called other than a leadership journal. But it was a way for me when I would get really emotional, because I'm very passionate. So either be I'm really excited or I'm mad. I don't get sad a lot, but I would get like. you just feel it like I need to process this. So sometimes it would be. I just write a word that says.

Why why does this person think they always know best? But it was my way of being human, knowing that some of the things that come across for us we have blind spots that I'm emotional and probably need to censor myself. But I'm still feeling so. I needed to process.

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Kylie Ensrud: I've done this for probably I probably have 30 plus journals. And it's evolved since then, you know, in the beginning it really was just free writing then it was, you know. I could tell when I had a bad day, because it'd be 3 words, and it was.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Kylie Ensrud: Very short. Some people will use pictures out of magazines to capture how they're feeling, so it doesn't have to be like free flow writing. It can be words. It can be coloring. It can be magazine pictures whatever. And as I've gotten older, how I use this I'll take themes. So you know, resiliency, for example, or defensiveness. Defensiveness is one that over time I really focused on. So anytime I felt defensive in a meeting or situation, I would go straight to the Journal. I'd write down the context like meeting 4, 22 or 4 23 with you know, Anna, she asked me about Xyz topic, and she challenged my viewpoint, and I wanted to punch her, you know, whatever you know.

Of course I don't like. She didn't trust my knowledge or.

Anna Swayne: Lying.

Kylie Ensrud: So insecure because she asked me a question I couldn't answer.

But then, what you do is anytime I would have moments of like high emotion. Or you know those extremes. I go back to my journals and say, Okay. like is, let me process this a little bit because they're fleeting. These moments are fleeting. And really, our emotions are only created from experiences. They don't actually exist. We make them based on how we condition ourselves to react.

Yeah, alright. Yeah. So I'm like, I am always acting defensive when they talk to me about this. Well, if I trained myself to be defensive, I can train myself not to be defensive. And so it really was just sort of a gut check in a very safe way to say. nobody's reading this. I don't have to show this to anybody. There's no.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Kylie Ensrud: It's whatever works for you.

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Kylie Ensrud: As a way to sort of be a mirror for yourself and it. And it did like the the example with my second mentor. It probably stopped me from saying, I'm out because I can't wait, because I realize I'm like, okay, maybe we have different personalities. He's just challenging me like.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Kylie Ensrud: And now he's 1 of my best friends in the world, and I think we'll always work together in some capacity. So that's where I used to.

Anna Swayne: Really cool.

Kylie Ensrud: So I use the word journal loosely, but really just a way to reflect on your blind spots and a a safe space to just be human.

We all have those days. We all do.

Anna Swayne: We, we are literally.

Kylie Ensrud: So.

Anna Swayne: And so do the people we work with are also human, which I which I love, that you're like. These are all tips to help, you know. Get us to a place where we can retrain our brain to work harder. Don't get lazy, brain, you know, connect and push ourselves to to either connect with ourselves, process things or with others, because I think, in our roles as leaders, or, you know, responsible for entire organizations, which I think most probably on this call are Hr professionals managing their entire population, and they have to be able to, you know. Maybe it's this journal that will help or maybe it's just these little takeaways about, how do we help train ourselves, train our own brains to be more transformational or help others?

So? And that's what's so interesting about your second example is because the second mentor I don't know if he was being transactional in a way that he, you know, was maybe borderline. But you kind of helped. You kind of helped him, and you get to a very transformational area. So I'm curious to either dig on that piece, or just in general, as we think about, how do we help others? Get to this spot.

Kylie Ensrud: Sorry I didn't mean early.

Anna Swayne: No, no, no, that! Just.

Kylie Ensrud: Fun and nuance that I didn't even that I I mean, now that you say it, I know, but that I didn't even think about in the example. It was very transactional in the beginning.

They they were quick drive bys on. Do this. Did you think about this? Do this? But we didn't know each other either, and I was taking it very personal, because I'm an idea person, and I'm a relational person, and he's an alpha male type of Guy, but he's a very servant leader like an amazing person, but I didn't know that about him yet.

So I think within that defensiveness. But also he cared enough to keep trying like he never's like, Oh, she's always this way. So I'm just gonna build a bad relationship.

He was always humble enough and open enough that he could tell that. There, if there was tension. He had that, you know that emotional intelligence enough, too.

That we could. We were very lucky in that in that regard that it was never a toxic relationship, and I think the combination of the 2 allowed us to come together in a very transformational way. But it's an example of where a transactional relationship, had it not been in the right hands, or with folks that didn't have a vested interest in making it work. You know, when you're a CEO and a chief people officer, Hr. Officer, the smart Ceos will realize how important that relationship is. We had a vested interest in in collaborating and trusting each other because a lot of times at work. You don't always have that, not in a negative way. You just don't. There's different departments or different.

Anna Swayne: Good.

Kylie Ensrud: Or you don't. There's just something you don't like about each other. So you never get past that transactional to have enough patience with each other, or enough enough age on your side again. We're we were both at a point in our careers where we could step back and reflect or at a point where you can say, Oh, what what am I doing in this situation that I could do differently? So I think it was sort of a a combination of multiple factors that came together really well. But it's also where all of those factors did have to come together very well to to create what we created. And it's and it shows how difficult it can be in the day to day workplace, and nobody's right or wrong, or or malicious or trying to do anything self serving. Necessarily, it's just the way that humans go about it takes. It takes a lot of effort to do that.

Anna Swayne: And.

Kylie Ensrud: And and a lot of times it does kind of start with ourselves.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, see? That's what's so interesting. It's like, you know, this is, this is, I don't even know if you meant to do it. But it's like a perfect example of like how it does take time. And you, the right ingredients have to be in the right place, you know, to then make it happen, but it feels like there's like a theme of just like he was willing. You are willing. There's this humble, you know, some, maybe some vulnerability.

Kylie Ensrud: Absolutely.

Anna Swayne: I'll have you. So that was an area where he helped you. I'm curious if there's like other examples. Just you know, as we're as we're talking about what it takes to create these connections. Because, like you said, no one's trying to be malicious. No, no one's trying to sabotage hopefully.

Kylie Ensrud: General. Yes.

Anna Swayne: Hopefully. They are not working at your company, but if they are no yeah. So let's talk through like, what are some of those things. you know, because we are so busy. Maybe it is just what you said. Try just trying to be open. Have a conversation, because I think there's this role of vulnerability and leadership, and it gets reflected. So kind of you were saying that with your journal helps you process things to then be a better leader for your people. That then reflects, and, you know. kind of just like a domino effects. But I'm just curious, like your thoughts there, as we kind of wrap up this section of.

Kylie Ensrud: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: The difference between the 2, what it takes and why it's so important, like like, let's hit on vulnerability and what it plays in leadership.

Kylie Ensrud: Oh, vulnerability. That's a tough one. Right? It's yeah. And and authenticity is, too. It's do you want to put? Do you want to be your most authentic self all the time. A 100%. Well. but no right, I mean, but we're we're just not. I'm not this. I am the same person at my core, the same values, the same moral with my husband as I am at work.

But you don't act the same at work, because it just wouldn't be the right play right.

Anna Swayne: Set it? Yeah.

Kylie Ensrud: But the the vulnerability piece and helping people. What? I where I have always said, Okay, this is where I can make a difference is, at the end of the day I have to be able to put my head down at night. Can I feel good about the decisions I made, and I always anchor myself in those that helped me so, or stories, because some people maybe haven't had that experience yet, or something that they can latch

onto. So what have I heard that I knew made a difference that really resonated with me so early in my career? The gentleman that had that conversation he taught me. Wow! Hey? That was probably hard for him and me like that wasn't easy for him.

Anna Swayne: True.

Kylie Ensrud: That's not easy for anybody, or like termination conversations. If you're hr people, I always say you never terminate anybody. They terminate themselves. It doesn't mean that it's easy, and it doesn't mean you're not gonna cry on the way home, and it doesn't mean they have to go, not have a card conversation with their family, but if you had honest conversations with them, gave them opportunities, and they didn't change their behavior. That's not your fault. That's not your fault as long as you can do everything you can. And so that's where the vulnerability with teams for me is. Vulnerability doesn't mean fault. It doesn't mean a lack of accountability, and it doesn't mean you have to kind of lay yourself out there, either. I absolutely can be vulnerable in the areas that I'm not great at and admit that. But that also that doesn't mean I have to pull back on the areas I'm strong at.

I am a great energy source. I don't have to be like. Hmm. no, it's okay. I'm not great, you know. Okay, I'm horrible at details. Horrible. Have to work very, very hard at it. There's some amazing people that have helped me not get fired that are on my team, just like, Oh, my gosh! If I didn't have them, I probably would have been fired by now. They're amazing at that, but I never step away from being confident in what I know I'm good at. and I think sometimes people become too vulnerable, or too or too willing to kind of throw themselves under the bus to make others feel better. And you don't have. You don't have to. And I think that's the part that's important, because they know that they can be confident to them. It isn't a oh, they can see you being confident in your abilities while also embracing theirs. It's not a. you know. It's not a mutual exclusivity thing. It's we both can be great just because I'm great doesn't lessen you.

It's not this, it's let's both be great, maybe in different ways. And so for me, I always want to service. That example of you can be vulnerable, you know. You can see me on this talk. I kind of just I don't know. Talk. This is what people get.

I'm not all of a sudden gonna go button up and and do something different in, you know, the work environment from Hr. What they get is what they what they get. but allowing others to see the safety in that is important in those transformation, otherwise they can't trust you enough to embrace that.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. Oh, I like that a lot. It's like we can both be equally great at certain things or different things. But I like the idea of.

Kylie Ensrud: Some of the same things, and we are just not good.

Anna Swayne: But not throwing yourself under the bus to like hopefully help lift someone else up. It's like, no, we don't have to do that. Yeah, that's not what being vulnerable means. I like that a lot.

Okay. So some of you on the call are probably thinking, this is awesome. I am Kylie, I you know, as I think about this. and just how important it is sometimes, and even in your examples, just recognizing it is the hardest part. you know, it's like, Are, you know, does our team have the connection to be able to be more transformational versus transactional? Am IA leader that's doing this. How do you? You know what are some signs or some techniques that we can think about, either for ourselves or us coaching other leaders where we're like. We lack connection like this is maybe there might be some room here like to improve.

Kylie Ensrud: Pay attention to your body number number one. Every experience that we encounter have. I mean, it's a physiological right away. So if if you're all of a sudden in a room with somebody, and you're just like checked out, or you're just quiet. and you don't feel a passion, for maybe it's you don't have a passion for challenging their ideas, or you don't get excited when they get excited, or you're sitting on a zoom call again with, you know, 15 other people, and you're like.

I really don't care. I'd have a really transactional interaction with a lot of people. You could just be tired that day, too. So it's like, let's look at the big picture. But some of those signs where it's like, it's so. I don't feel that because things we care about, or that we're engaged with. We usually have some sort of reaction to above the norm, good or bad, healthy or not. And so that's number one, I always say, is, how much am I invested in this? And how much do I care about this or not care about this? Does my blood pressure rise.

If if you start getting defensive, you know the blood pressure, it could be a sign that it's like, this relationship is so, is it at a transactional point where I don't feel trusting or safe of that person's intent? So maybe I need to work on that relationship because they're probably not a bad person, but I'm getting really defensive, and my blood pressure is rising, and I don't know why.

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Kylie Ensrud: So those sort of things. But then it's also as leaders. It's just like I don't put on running shoes. And all of a sudden. Tomorrow I'm going to go run a marathon. I'm not running today, right? You know. It's like, I don't run. I'm not going to run a Marathon tomorrow. So it really is the same thing with our brains it is. and the older you get, the harder it is. That's why, you know, it's like, oh, they're old and stubborn. Well, yeah, because think of how many years they've been doing those same habits and patterns. So the older you get, the harder it is to change. And so. finding some way to either trigger yourself visually, or you know, in my notebook, after I got that feedback it was, listen like at the top of every page before the meeting. Listen. I just wrote it on my paper that way. I knew visually. If

I look down, shut my mouth, shut my mouth, shut my mouth because my default was to talk but as the leader, taking those those steps to say, Okay, how can I change my behavior 1% each day. so that it becomes a new habit, because you're not going to do it overnight? Unfortunately, but it's 1 of those that you the time's gonna pass, anyway. And maybe a year later you wake up and you're running a marathon because you did 1% each day.

The effort comes in being disciplined enough to do those small habits when you really don't want to. And so that's why I say, find the easy. Find the easy shortcuts for you, for mine. It was simply writing. Listen! At the top of my meeting notes. I always had a legal pad. Right? Listen, or my notebook, or whatever you know. Some people have posted notes or their vision board, you know the vision boards with this is my dream. Wait. There's something to be said for seeing what you want to achieve. It keeps it in front of you so that you're paying attention to it. And so whatever that is for you find it and and find the easy don't make it hard, because the easier it is the more frequent we're gonna do it, and then the more it becomes a habit. Just like children. You, you know, you crawl, you walk, you run all of that. And so I you know, I even say you want to become a reader. But you don't like reading. Okay, just read for 20 seconds. You can commit to 20 seconds. Heck! We're on social media for longer than that each day.

And then if you find, after 20 seconds, you're still engaged, keep reading great, or you find you hate it. Put the book down. it's okay I use. I don't have one in front of me. I have one behind me, I think, but the hourglasses, the the 15 min, 30 min hourglasses. I use those a lot when I really want to work on, or need to work on something that I don't want to do.

I can. I can do it for 15 min, hey? I can suck it up for 15 min. So I tell myself, okay, hourglass. Here we go 15 min. If at the end of this 15 min I still hate it, and my brain's not into it. I don't want to do it. I'm walking away, but at least I got 15 min done.

Anna Swayne: Like that.

Kylie Ensrud: Because 15 min each day, if I'm planning, avoids procrastination and I'll get it done. And then I don't have to torture myself for hours.

What usually happens, though, is you? You start getting in the zone after about 15 min, and and then it's just a win-win. But those sort of ways to say, Okay, knowing that we're we're creatures of habit. How do you create sustainable habits? And it truly is just bite sized pieces consistently.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. So if if you I mean, and this is a great example, because, like, you know, you knew you got that feedback. Okay, I need to listen more. How does you know?

How does one find out what they need to work on? Like if I, you know, doing true evaluation of my own leadership style, and I'm like, I don't know what I I see. My team's not engaging, you know. Those are great tips on how to know if maybe connections not quite there. What would you suggest to somebody who's trying to evaluate themselves.

Kylie Ensrud: And this is this is the vulnerability piece a little bit right. Find.

Find the individual that you know will at least give you an honest answer. They might not give you a candid answer, and I say, and they're a little bit different. They'll tell you the truth. But they might not tell you everything because they don't want to hurt your feelings, or they don't know. You really. Well, just go ask to say hey? Because, as she as she was. we often want to help each other. If somebody that I don't know comes to me and says, your or Noel at least, says, hey, Kylie, I value your opinion. Would you mind giving me some feedback on on how you thought I acted in that meeting? And I'm like. I don't really know you, but I sat with you in the meeting. At least I would absolutely sit down with them and say, Okay, well, based on what I know in my perspective. Here's what I witnessed. I might be a little more reserved, and how I provide that feedback as opposed to you know, my professional colleague that I've worked with forever. And just saying. You know. Bob, you did this, this, this and this. You got it like dude. Come on, you know, cause it's a but go ask. It's okay and and make it feel safe for them to provide you that feedback, because often people won't share thoughts because they've been conditioned to either get shut down or lashed at, or they give their feedback, and then it comes back and haunts them, or, you know, whatever. And so equally saying, you know, hey, Anna. I'm trying to grow a little bit. Learn. What? How do you think that that call went? Or are there things that you would have done differently? Or do you think people resonated with my message? You know anything, anything you're willing to share with me? Anna is great. But if you, if you don't have anything or don't feel comfortable, that's fine, too, or you can email it to me, you know, making it safe for them without putting them on the spot to. But just take that step.

Most people are absolutely willing to at least say, Hey, well, let me think about it, and I'll follow up here, and then they'll send you an email on something.

Anna Swayne: I like that.

Kylie Ensrud: And then you almost start building those truth brokers. Some people are.

Anna Swayne: Never heard.

Kylie Ensrud: They are, you know. Some people gotta find them.

Anna Swayne: I like that. It's kind of a win-win scenario you're learning to get better. And you're building a trusted relationship with the individual you reached out to. Oh, that's such a great tip!

Kylie Ensrud: Lazy by nature, I think, myself included. There's times I'm like, I'm a scientist in this. I studied this forever, and I don't even know how to do it right? You know, it's we're just lazy by nature. So it's like, Okay, if I really want this. I got it.

Anna Swayne: It's not.

Kylie Ensrud: I can't blame anybody else. So I'm gonna go ask. And it's not easy. But anytime you feel that little bit of discomfort you're growing because we we have to without discomfort. We don't.

Anna Swayne: That is so true.

Kylie Ensrud: You're lifting weights. You gotta stretch them a little bit.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, the pain is there. If you don't fill in the pain, you're probably too complacent.

Kylie Ensrud: Probably 2, yeah.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. okay, this is really man. This is so good. And time's flying. Okay, we promise to leave questions at the end. If if you guys have some, put them in the chat, Kylie will answer them. Live.

Okay, let's get into I want to switch gears just a little bit and talk a lot about how leaders can can create these environments, you know. So we talked a little bit about you yourself as a leader, how you, and I'm I don't know if you see me, Kyle. I'm totally taking notes for myself.

Kylie Ensrud: So here's your kids.

Anna Swayne: Told you guys, like, okay, I can get better at this. But how? So? Talk a little bit about, you know, transactional versus transformational. How we as leaders can, you know, identify ways to get better and things that we can do to get 1% better every day. Love that. How? Let's switch to like as leaders creating those environments. So our teams, other organizations we work with really feel heard and valued.

What's your approach tips on how to do that.

Kylie Ensrud: Yeah. And you know, and part of doing this, I want folks to understand, too. We don't have endless hours in the day, right? And so we have to find ways where it's like. I don't have 6 h where I can go. Have a day trip with Anna and get to know her and all that. Sometimes the transactional it. It feels like a time bound thing. You can have transformational interactions in a short amount of time. It's really, what are, what are they about and building opportunities in between the quick? Because you're always going to have transactional. What you have to do is be so intentional about creating the strong relationships. To begin with, that when the transactional happens, you already know each other's intent. You already know where you're coming from. So when you do the breeze. it's fine.

But create, you know, as leaders creating those environments, it's I don't think we realize, or at least I didn't realize initially how much with my team. I was. Very I I'm a very hands off leader, and I assume that they know what they're doing, and they have no questions, and they'll let me know if they need something.

Anna Swayne: Which for some people is great.

Kylie Ensrud: And I greatly failed an individual one time by doing this, and I will never do it again.

You know some folks are like oh, that's the best leader shells ever autonomy go do my thing. Yeah, until somebody was young in their career and needed set expectations. And I'm over here going. Oh, they'll let me know. And then they kept not doing great, and I would say, Hey, let me know what you need. They didn't know what they needed. They didn't know. So every time I'm like, Okay, let me know what you need. Let me know how I can support. And I'm thinking I'm asking them. I'm telling them I'll give them training. I'll send them to, you know, whatever they need. I'll help them. They didn't know what they needed. and I didn't know what they needed, because I didn't take enough time to really, really interact. It was, just tell me what you need. And so it's taking the time to understand the person enough. And you don't have to do that in large chunks of time. It's just paying attention. So, being very aware of people's tendencies, you know, when somebody goes quiet that is always talking. That's a that's a queue. So how do we make it safe for them to speak up so understanding sort of what's going on. but also not focusing so much on the what. But the why. So if I need numbers in an organization, or I need this project done, or I need an update. Where's that common value? We're trying to accomplish something together that is bigger than the numbers. So how do you find those connections that are outside of the transactional? So you know, if if you work for a mission driven organization, I guess I'm thinking we're nonprofit type of world or healthcare, something that's very easily. Wow! You're there to help others. That's pretty obvious to get around. You're there for not to do it or do this or that. You're there to help others help people, and you all can gather around that. So, finding those little moments to to remind each other of that I.

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Kylie Ensrud: Putting yourself in those positions where again, you're vulnerable. So you can show the example that it's okay to be human like, you don't always have to have a facade. But I don't expect you to be the same person you are with your family. That you're at work like this is not gonna happen.

And sometimes being that example, you have to be intentional because others have never seen that example before because they've worked for toxic organizations or bad leaders, or they've just never felt safe doing it. And and that is a very real thing. You can't just say. Well, I said, I have an open door, so they should just come to me. It's an open door.

Anna Swayne: So.

Kylie Ensrud: It doesn't work that way. If they've always had leaders that said, I have an open door, and they go in there, and then they get.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Kylie Ensrud: Down the road. They're gonna learn that it's truly not an open door. And so that consistency again with the team creates those situations. But you know, even in organizations that aren't healthcare or nonprofits, or any of that, you know, there's they work with an it company. And to me I don't get real excited about it. And that's okay. But I do get excited about the work that we do for other industries. So we help healthcare through it so they can go do great work for patients. We connect so much with different businesses that allows them to be better businesses, and Hr. I don't know anything about it. Engineering, but whatever I can do to help remove barriers for our engineers and the team that does the great work that makes a difference. And so I connect with those around that and letting them know that. Hey?

I'm not your traditional Hr. I know you're busy if you need something, and we're remote on top of that being that face, you know, for them.

And so it really is again creating sort of those habitual consistent environments where there's opportunities to not just talk about the work, but talk about the person and connect. and that doesn't. That doesn't mean having no accountability. You can still, actually probably means more because somebody's gonna have a hard conversation or a kind conversation with you when you're not doing maybe your best. it just means connecting, as humans and humans have all sorts of things in life and feelings and thoughts and challenges. And so it's it's being allowed to do that in that space.

Anna Swayne: I like that. I like that. You said intentional.

Kylie Ensrud: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: That you know you have those you make those moments count.

Kylie Ensrud: No.

Anna Swayne: And that. you know, speaks volumes for those other moments where there are more transactional because you're right, like.

Kylie Ensrud: She had a kid.

Anna Swayne: We came here to Job. We came here to do a job. We have to. We have to do that can't always be over indexing into that transformational piece.

Kylie Ensrud: They think of that one person that you have one moment with like, and I'm sure we all have them that either makes you feel like, oh, I literally spent 5 seconds bad mood, or I spent 5 seconds with them. And I'm having the best day of my life. It's just like.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Kylie Ensrud: Oh, they completely changed my day at the gas station because of their smile, or whatever it doesn't take a ton

Anna Swayne: You're absolutely right, I think sometimes we try to overcomplicate it, and we have has to be this grand gesture as a leader, and it's like, no, you're actually right. The very consistent moments to being like just checking in with your team.

Kylie Ensrud: Yeah, I know.

Anna Swayne: Matters.

Kylie Ensrud: Yeah, when I talked to Kylie, and that she's coming from a good place. So even the grace on my bad days, then I get the grace. It's like, today. And I don't think she meant it that way. So I'm I'm gonna see if she's okay or I'm gonna let us like, you know, those sort of thing.

Anna Swayne: A little easier. Yes, and we need people we need. We need those moments. I think sometimes. you know and and experiences that I've had when I'm meeting with my team members, I'm like, Oh, they're doing fine. But let's just skip. Let's just skip it. Let's just get down to business, you know. And then I have to be like, Nope. yeah, let me just check in, because I can't make assumptions. But it's it's hard like you said, our brains get lazy like you saying that to me today I'm like, Oh, my gosh! That's totally me. Sometimes.

Kylie Ensrud: Oh, there's probably people on the call right now, like, okay, we've been going 45 min like, we're on autopilot. How do you know it just what's on my to do list. But.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Kylie Ensrud: You brought up the how you doing it, anybody. And there's a lot of different models out there for meetings. But oh, my gosh! I would challenge anybody that's ever been in a meeting. They're like, Oh, let's just skip the the segway, or let's just skip. How are we doing today? Let's just get because it does. It seems like the least valuable. and it sometimes isn't as valuable. Then I would always say, maybe you need to ask a different question of each other, like the interaction is not valuable. But if you're asking stupid things or things, but if you.

Anna Swayne: No idea.

Kylie Ensrud: Oh, maybe the what's your favorite candy bar question? You all know that about each other. So maybe you need to ask something else like. I don't know if what what's your biggest challenge this week that you're really wrestling with mentally outside of work. I don't something like that. There's always something you can say.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Kylie Ensrud: So I always say there's no, there's no stupid introduction or or nicety, or saying there's just maybe better questions that can be asked of each other instead of being lazy and like let's just get to business. Oh, but I laugh because we still I mean there's still times we do it on different leadership teams, and I know better.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think that's the better question. Like you just said, let's ask a better question, because I've been in, you know, situations where you know my, my leader is like, Oh, we'll just skip the icebreaker for Taylor. Let's just go straight in. And I'm like, Okay, but if it's a time issue, let's do a fun question. But something that doesn't have to go around the Horn and everyone answer. It's more of like, raise your hand, if or you know, do you know something more fast but engaging? Because, yeah, you can't skip that like we're human, and we're full fully remote, too. So even more so we have to. We can't skip those moments because then connection starts to dim. But I like your. I like your call to action there of like, just ask a better question or something more appropriate for the the context or the time element. Yeah.

Kylie Ensrud: Nope.

Anna Swayne: Oh, wow! Okay, I'm I'm getting off track. But this has been awesome. I'm learning a ton. Let's see, we only have a few more minutes. And if if we don't get to questions we can, you know, we can take them offline or get back to you. But if you guys do have a question for Kylie, please put it in the chat. Kylie. Okay, let's let's talk about these buzzwords. So sure you've heard a ton and sometimes you hear leadership just saying things. And you're like, how do I put that into practice? So how can we? How can we? Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Kylie Ensrud: Oh, I just say a lot. Some of it's so philosophical. It's like, what do I actually do with that? Yeah.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. And it's like, okay, it's really about that framework. Anyways, I'm just curious, like your thoughts there, like, what are some of the buzzwords you are hearing, or you've seen in the past, and it's like, How do you kind of navigate that to create a more sustainable framework for your, you know your performance reviews, or just one on ones like, just have like having more structure there, so that you can actually get to solving for the actual pain point.

Kylie Ensrud: Yeah, you know, I think empathy is a huge one. That we always hear is, you know, just make sure you're always empathetic with person and empathetic leadership, and that that absolutely is true. I think we do need to have empathy too. But, like, what does that really mean on a day to day, basis

Anna Swayne: Hmm.

Kylie Ensrud: Because to me the most empathetic. empathetic person I ever encountered was the one that told me nobody liked me.

Anna Swayne: Gosh! I mean.

Kylie Ensrud: Because it. He set my whole career up. And it doesn't mean a lack of accountability. But I think it is truly again, if I could sum everything up into leadership. There's there's so many ways to do it right. There's a billion books on it.

It's an industry where it's flavor of the I say flavor of the month could be the best flavor ever. But it's still there's all these sorts of things, and there's spinoffs, and there's this framework, and there's this model. And there's this and this, and this, and a lot of brilliant people, right? You have to find what works for you. because there's so much good. there's so much similar. There's so much difference, you know. You can read, and I have books all in front of me, but it's you know, Malcolm Gladwell is out there with amazing stuff that he's had forever. There's, you know, Adam Grant, that has some amazing stuff out. There's all sorts of things, us traction, you know all these operational models.

There's no silver bullet. If if there was, somebody would be very, very wealthy right now, running all these companies. Right?

Anna Swayne: Yeah,

Kylie Ensrud: Often we're trying to find something to fix, to slap on, to fix an internal problem. And there's just not an answer. You have to find what's right for you.

And that means paying attention and being intentional. So if you find that a leadership journal doesn't work for you don't do it. It's okay. Find? What does. If you find that buying a a. a certain outfit with a certain pair of shoes makes you go exercise right? Go do that. If that motivates you. Who cares? You got you out the door right. just because somebody else is saying, you know. Go, go run barefoot. That's the new way to to do training. Wasn't that a trend, or something, or vice.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, my brother, he! Yes, that's it. Yeah.

Kylie Ensrud: It might be the so. I have no clue. Whether it works or not. You know the placebo effect. Find what works for you, and then be consistent. and don't be too hard on ourselves, but also apply that to other people. because if we're struggling as leaders to do a better job and do these things. And we're focusing on it.

They're not even focusing on it. And they're in their humans. They may not even want to or realize they need to. And so that patient, you know, really being patient in those interactions, but bringing the intentionality. making sure that every interaction that you have with somebody. There's a reason for it, and maybe the reason is just to put a smile on their face. It doesn't have to be an operational or tactical reason. It simply could be an intentional engagement for no other reason than to let them know that you thought about them. And you're gonna give them a smile today that matters. But be intentional is what you're doing. Don't just be like, Oh, shoot! I gotta. I gotta show up at this meeting and do this and do this, and then walk away and just go through. Don't go on autopilot, and that's the hardest thing we can do, because that's all our brains are telling us to do physiologically. We are built to go on autopilot with our brains. So you have to fight that. And so then I say right, you know. Find your find, your post-it notes, or your journals, or whatever it is for you that'll make you that 1% better, or pay attention. And then, once you've built that habit, move on to the next one and say, Okay, I've got that habit down.

Now, what am I going to do just with my leadership journals. They started out very, just free flowing. Now, I'm very like, Oh, okay, I'm having a day where I need to be a strong female leader in a room full of men. I'm gonna go find my leadership journal that talks about that and talks about a power dynamic. And then I'm gonna look up what I wrote in there and get and get things from that.

You know. Hr. Professionals. I don't know how many termination conversations, some of them, and sat in. Oh, my, gosh, I thought I was gonna puke my 1st one. I think I'm gonna puke every single one. That's okay.

But I also know now that I'm not terminating somebody as long as I did what I needed to do, and I can live with that, because that makes that makes me feel good that I did what I needed to do. But I didn't learn that overnight. It was like, Oh, gosh! I'm terminating them. They're gonna yell at me. They're gonna kill me. But it's like, no.

I had the caring conversation. I gave them opportunities. I was real with them. They might not like me. They're going to be mad. They're going to be emotional. I understand why. But over time I learned and got the perspective that it's not me. And so that's why that can. Again, that consistency and those habits are so important. So when you're doing performance reviews or doing your one on ones. Be intentional and be consistent. And again, I am so guilty of this, too. I'll hop on a 1 on one with my team member. And it's like, All right, what do you got today?

Alright, you don't got any. You don't have anything. I don't have anything, either. All right. Okay. And then we'll either chat or pop up like. okay, we're all busy. I just wasted time. or I, at least could have built a stronger relationship with more intentional chatter. and not that that informal chatter isn't valuable, it is, but it's just we do it too too often unintentionally.

Anna Swayne: Yep.

Kylie Ensrud: But I I you know sometimes I'll get off the call with her. I'm like, oh, I forgot. Her child had that this week, and I should remember, so I at least ask her about that because she cares about that. So then validity and those habits are just critical, and knowing that if you're not willing to do the work to drive it? The change isn't gonna happen. And and that's not right or wrong. It's just. Are you willing to do that to make the change?

And I think that's where we find the best leaders. You know my mentors. They they don't stop learning, and they don't stop putting themselves out there and then I'm like, Oh, man.

Anna Swayne: Yes.

Kylie Ensrud: Into being great leaders. It's not. It's not by accident.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. So do you feel like autopilot's like the biggest mistake.

Kylie Ensrud: Yeah.

Anna Swayne: Leaders fall into.

Kylie Ensrud: Yeah. And I don't know that I'd call it a mistake. It's just by nature. It's.

Anna Swayne: Huh!

Kylie Ensrud: That awareness of. That's what our brains want to do. We want to be. That's why uncertainty is hard. That's why, when we don't have an answer or change management. You think when it's done wrong. Leaders are like, well, this is going to happen and just do it. And people get panicky or don't like it, or they resist it.

There is a physiological and Matthew Lieberman out of Ucla famous study years ago, with Mris, the same receptors in our brain that trigger physical pain. Those same receptors are triggered with emotional pain.

So go take an I always say, broken heart. Go take an ibuprofen. but there is some truth to that.

We physically, we feel physical pain, not to the same degree as a car accident, or something like that. but the same pain. Receptors are like alert, alert. This does not feel good, this feels uncomfortable, this feels uncomfortable. Run, run, run. and we do that. But we're not. It's just sort of happening and so that's why I say, there's a balance. You want to feel some level of discomfort. but your instinct is to run away, or just go back to autopilot. but not so much that you shut down. and that's a little bit different for everybody.

And I think that's why, it's it's not a mistake. As leaders. It's just again that intentionality and awareness, and finding that out what that is for you.

And oh, my gosh! Give yourself, Grace, because it's gonna take time like it took I I still look at myself like, Oh, my gosh! Why was I so dumb today? You know it. Just it's it's like, Okay, but I'm better than I was at 22 years old. So I mean.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Kylie Ensrud: That's right.

Anna Swayne: Yeah.

Kylie Ensrud: And I think that's that's what makes those transformational relationships important. We're all human. And we're all we're all connected in some way. And if we can model that behavior intentionally, consistently, and help others find those tools for them. It'll just make us better all around.

Anna Swayne: Yeah, I think that's the the part that's so fascinating to me is like when we are better, and we can help others get better like it's just domino spreads domino effect like it just spreads. And then we're all better. And it's like, isn't that why, we're here. help each other. And then, you know, our organizations are better. Our our customers are better. Our, you know. Business metrics are better. Yeah.

Kylie Ensrud: Easier said than done right, or I think we'd all done it.

Anna Swayne: Of course. Yeah, we can say it on a an hour. Call and feel good about it.

Kylie Ensrud: Life. Changing people, too, is the ones that did like you said it's usually not by accident. most. There's luck in life. But most things took effort of some sort or intention.

Anna Swayne: But I like. I like your tips on, you know, being intentional about it. Don't missing an opportunity when the opportunity is there, and don't go on autopilot like. Oh, let's just, you know, we're going through the motions. But finding those little small things to remind ourselves like the lesson post it. I think we probably could all put something on a post it right now and put it up there. But just that con, the being consistent about it. 1% better.

Our CEO always says, Hike, how do we get 10% better? And I sometimes I'm like, how about 1%?

Kylie Ensrud: Better, is better.

Anna Swayne: But the point is like, okay, if we need to get 10% better, how do I back into that by being 1% better in in everyday things. So but I like that mentality, because that means you're you're you're on a progressive spectrum, you know that you're not gonna go. Yeah, it is the same. Yeah, exactly. And.

Kylie Ensrud: Not for a day.

Anna Swayne: Yeah. And the autopilot. You're not going anywhere. So like we gotta remember as a good way. So hopefully from this chat, everybody thanks for joining us, Kylie, you've been incredible. So glad you were here, and taking the time to share your wisdom with us. Very fascinating, and we'll take some of these tips we'll post this. So if you guys want to watch it or share with, you know peers or colleagues, or your team on just how to get better at being leaders and taking the time to do that. I think it's super important. We obviously feel that way here at Nava. So thank you. Kylie can't thank you enough.

And then, if you want to come to our next one, we have a missing chapters every month next month we are going to be talking about. You know what what the chapter that's sometimes missed on hiring. And how do we think about hiring from a I need this. I have this need today, or am I hiring for our future team needs? And so Skylar, from Hope, from Haiti, is going to join us in a few weeks.

So if you want to join, please come to that, and we also have some other fun events coming up. We have a fixed healthcare live event that we will be doing in the summer in June. and if you're in person we'd love to have you.

This is an opportunity for just to come and network and also learn about what's happening in the space of benefits. So Nava is a benefits. Brokerage. We help businesses provide awesome employee benefits that are affordable. And so we're we're putting on this event in June. So we'd love to have you come if you want to. We can register at our link that we'll send out.

So thanks autumn for putting those both into the chat. And if you're not a part of our community already, we would love to have you. This is an opportunity for Hr professionals like Kylie. You can come and connect with. Ask other questions. This you know, share. I think there was a question earlier this week about tools that they use. Somebody needed. a gifting platform. So they went into the community. And they're like, Hey, what do you guys use? Or how do I do this for culture or hiring, or just a great way to share best practices and tips, or even continue our conversation today. So love to have you there. If you're not a member already, please join us.

And again, Kylie, seriously, I could go. I hope we have you come back and dive even deeper into the science of leadership and our brains, and how we can be better like hopefully, you'll join us again on another missing chapters. So thanks everybody so glad you were here, and hope you have a fabulous rest of your day.

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