What the chapter on conflict resolution misses about clear communication.

Hailey Tielkemeier: All right, hello everyone, and welcome to Missing Chapters. We are just kind of at the top of the hour, so we'll give everyone a couple minutes to… to join. While we wait, let's do everyone's favorite webinar activity, which is put in the chat. Where you are joining from.

I am based in Chattanooga, Tennessee, where yesterday we had a high of 67, but it also snowed.

Vanessa Brulotte: What?

Hailey Tielkemeier: weather's… yeah, it's wild. Crazy weather right now. Just, like, all over the place. What about you, Vanessa? Where are you joining from?

Vanessa Brulotte: We had our very first snowfall in Utah a couple weeks ago, and it is bright and sunny today. So…

Hailey Tielkemeier: Love it. I know, all the, all the Utahns that I work with are very, have very mixed feelings about the lack of snow this year.

Vanessa Brulotte: Yeah, yeah, it's kind of sad. I wish I had snow at least once in the fall, because I feel like we didn't really get to celebrate December properly.

Hailey Tielkemeier: With no snow. Yeah, I'm sure, yeah. Okay, we also have Harry from Dallas. Harry, I grew up in the Dallas area. Go Cowboys!

Vanessa Brulotte: You know, Texas and Tennessee both have really good food. I've been to both states, and I've been blown away.

Hailey Tielkemeier: I… I agree. Yeah, Tennessee I was kind of surprised by, by how good it is.

Okay, I think, let's go ahead and get going, and then people can join as they will.

So, like I said, welcome to Missing Chapters. This is a webinar series where we focus on things that aren't always covered in the HR handbooks. But you need to know they're very important, they help you do your job better.

Today, we have Vanessa Brulot joining us. She's an Employee Relations Partner at Bamboo HR, and we're gonna talk about Conflict resolution. I am very excited about this topic, because I know it's something that is not a strength of mine. I totally avoid conflict. So, Vanessa, I have so much to learn from you, and I know that our audience will as well. Quick… oh! That's not what I wanted. Sorry, we're going a little backwards here.

My name is Hailey Tilkemeyer, I'm on the marketing team here at Nava Benefits. And part of my job is to get really great information into the hands of our audience, hence why we have Vanessa here with us today. And then we have Vanessa joining us. Vanessa, do you want to give a quick blurb about who you are, what you do?

Vanessa Brulotte: Yeah, so, my name is Vanessa Broulotte, and I've worked at Bamboo HR for about 9 years in a lot of different capacities, both in talent acquisition, management, HR business partner, and then, in the last couple of years, built a centralized function for employee relations across the business.

So, a lot of cool things that I've done there. Obviously, I'm a biased cheerleader for Bamboo HR, and prior to that, I've been an HR team of one, as well as worked in HR in the healthcare industry, and done staffing, and so, quite a bit of depth of some HR realm experiences, and have definitely felt… dealt with a lot of conflict over the years. I have some advice.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Great, we cannot wait to hear it. I am going to stop share and just let us, chat so that we can… have a better conversation. So, to get started, I know you're… you built the employee relations function at BambooHR. What does that look like? Day-to-day. What is… what does your job entail?

Vanessa Brulotte: Well, I can say that no two days in employee relations really look the same. A big part of my role has been building that more centralized function and approach, like I said before, and so we can show up consistently and fairly, especially in those high-stakes moments. Like investigations, performance challenges, terminations, and day-to-day, I'm partnering with leaders on everything from coaching through difficult conversations to navigating risk and making thoughtful decisions, and I work directly with employees, listening, addressing their concerns, helping resolve conflict before it escalates.

And I often step into situations as that neutral voice, bringing clarity and that sense of calm, which is important in HR when things feel uncertain. And at the end of the day, employee relations, I sometimes say ER, it's not the hospital ER, just employee relations. So if I say ER in this, you know what that means. It's really about protecting both the people and the organization, making sure we handle Those tough moments in a way that's fair, consistent, and just genuinely human.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah, I love that, and I feel like it's funny that you're, like, ER, not emergency room, but it is almost like the emer… it's very high stakes, I'm sure, like, very emotional, very rewarding, so in a lot of ways, I'm sure it is actually very similar to working In a hospital emergency room.

Vanessa Brulotte: I actually made that mistake one time. I told a leader, oh my gosh, sorry, I'll get to you in a second, I'm dealing with a different ER issue, and he thought I was going to the hospital, and so he checked in with me a few hours later, and I'm like, are you okay? I know that you.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Like, what are you working?

Vanessa Brulotte: Oh, I'm so sorry!

Hailey Tielkemeier: Love that, love that. So you have described this to me before as somewhat of a tough role. What makes it challenging?

Vanessa Brulotte: Well, I step in when things feel super complex, emotional, and uncertain, and these aren't just processes to manage, they're moments that shape how people experience that trust at work. So my role sits at the intersection of people and accountability, and I partner closely with leaders to navigate tough conversations with clarity and fairness, while also Creating that space for those employees to feel heard, supported, and respected, because as human beings, we all deserve dignity and respect.

And so it's about making sure decisions aren't just compliant. but human. And I think what really matters about this role is that these moments often shape how people experience the organization. It's where trust can either be built or broken. So at the core of what I do is just to bring that clarity, the human approach, to otherwise really difficult situations, so that People can walk away feeling respected, even though the outcome may be tough.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah, love that. I feel like that's so important. Dignity is humans, you know?

So you work with leaders a lot, I know you just said, and I know that, we always like to trust and think that our leaders are always doing the exact right, perfect thing, but we do see conflict avoidance in leadership a lot. What do you think that looks like in practice?

Vanessa Brulotte: Yes. Well, it often…

Hailey Tielkemeier: Where do I start?

Vanessa Brulotte: I know, yeah, there's so many things to unpack here. Well, it often isn't someone actively avoiding conflict. Sometimes it is. It's usually more subtle than that. In practice, it tends to show up as a delay. A leader notices, like, maybe a performance issue, or some tension on the team, but instead of addressing it early when it's manageable, they put it off on the back burner, or hope it resolves itself.

And then it really never gets addressed. And it can also show up in how feedback is delivered or not delivered. A leader might hesitate to give direct feedback to a peer or even their own manager because it feels uncomfortable or even risky at times.

So they stay quiet, even when something isn't working. Or with employees, it can look like something, the message to the point where it loses clarity, saying something… like, hey, you might want to think about this, but overall, you're doing great. And the intention is good, but the impact is that person walks away not really understanding what needs to change, and probably thinks they're doing really well. From just saying something as simple as that. And the reality is.

Most of the time, these issues don't go away, they compound, and by the time they finally surface, they're affecting the team, the culture, and the business in a much bigger way.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yes, totally. Why do you think that leaders do Beat around the bush, or delay the… hard conversation.

Vanessa Brulotte: It really comes down to… I shouldn't be laughing through all this, I just think we all can.

Hailey Tielkemeier: No, no, no, I When you're feeling it.

Vanessa Brulotte: this?

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yes, yes, no, we do. It's totally… it's like a… it's a very human… thing.

Vanessa Brulotte: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah.

Vanessa Brulotte: And I think we've all seen this, and we've all done it ourselves, too, so I think that's why it's like, we can all connect to this topic. And I think it really comes down to whether it's a will issue or a skill issue. And a lot of people assume it's about courage, that leaders just don't want to have hard conversations, and sometimes that's true.

But more often, it's actually a skill gap. It's not that they're unwilling, it's that they don't feel confident in how to do it well.

And so, because the reality is, not every situation is the same. There's no one-size-fits-all script for feedback or conflict. And when leaders don't have the tools or language, they default to softening the message or avoiding it altogether.

For example, instead of being more clear and specific, a leader might say, you need to be more professional, which is open to interpretation, versus using clear descriptors, so descriptions versus descriptors. Saying, instead, in yesterday's meeting, there were a few moments where you interrupted the client and affected how we showed up as a team, and unfortunately, that experience impacted their trust in us, and they've decided not to move forward with us anymore. Moving forward, I need you to be more mindful in client conversations and ensure we're showing up professionally in these moments.

Way different than just saying, you were not professional. They now know exactly what they did wrong, the impact, expectation moving forward, and that level of clarity really creates that alignment and actually gives someone that path to improve.

And another big one is what I call ruinous empathy. I know we'll hit on this a bit later in this conversation, but where a leader generally cares about the person, but avoids being fully honest Because they don't want to hurt them. So the feedback gets softened or diluted with things like, you're just doing great overall, without ever clearly addressing that real issue, and while the intention is.

Hailey Tielkemeier: good.

Vanessa Brulotte: The impact is the employee walks away confused, blindsided later, when that issue gets escalated.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah, no, I think that's so important, and I, something that I live by, especially as… well, not live by in this, I've already admitted I'm not always great about conflict, but, and as someone who works in communications, just clarity is kind.

And I think that's kind of what you're saying, and, like, not leaving it up to like, be more professional, so relative, you know? People would define that in different ways, so…

Vanessa Brulotte: Yeah.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah, I love that.

Vanessa Brulotte: And it's true, because over time, it can create frustration on both sides. Like, leaders may start to build resentment because the behavior isn't changing, and then employees may develop a false sense of how they're performing, reinforcing the problem instead of resolving it.

And so, when leaders beat around that bush, it feels kinder in the moment, but down the line, it creates more hurt, ultimately.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Hmm.

Vanessa Brulotte: But like we were talking about before, I think I kind of alluded to this in the beginning, is like, we all run into this. Like, conflict is something that everybody runs into, and it's a human challenge. Like, I think you even called that out, like, this is human, and everyone experiences it, and so it's… Oh, yeah, there was… I had an example that I was gonna share with you, that back in college, I think about conflict, that there was… there was… a situation that stuck with me with a professor. We were in a classroom, and the professor asked us, what do you think of when I say conflict? Like, what's the first thing that comes to your mind? And everyone's just saying, like, hard, you know, difficult, challenging, sad, you know, whatever it is. They're using words. There was somebody in that class that decided to just come up with an entire visual, and they were like, it's like sliding down a water slide, but it's razor sharp, so on the way down, you're getting nicked by razors, and then you, like, land in a pool of lemon juice.

And I was… and I never forgot that description, because sometimes when we think about conflict, we're like, I want to avoid that, I don't want to touch it, because it is a painful thing, because that's the mindset that, naturally, our amygdala is trying to protect us from. So, but… and I know we'll get But it's just, like, it's just so interesting that conflict can be scary, because that's kind of what's built inside of our minds, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah, totally. Okay, I want to touch on something that you were… you were just talking about, the… the amygdala's response, and I know that, like, with conflict, our bodies have, like, physiological response to it. Can you talk about that?

Vanessa Brulotte: Yes. So, this is what actually makes conflict feel so uncomfortable. So, when we approach conflict, especially if it feels tense or uncertain, our brain can interpret it as a threat. The amygdala, our brain's threat detector, kicks in and can trigger what's often called an amygdala hijack, and that's when it activates the fight-or-flight response and essentially overrides that prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that's responsible for that rational thinking, problem solving, and communication. So instead of responding thoughtfully, we're more likely to have a reaction. We might get defensive, shut down, avoid the conversation altogether, or just come in too strong, frankly. And the key insight is that this reaction is automatic. It's not a character flaw.

It's biology. And once you understand that, you can start to slow it down and create space to respond more intentionally rather than to react. And this fight-or-flight response doesn't just happen when we're caught off guard, like, it can happen even when we know a conversation's coming. Like, if someone gives you unexpected feedback in a meeting, your brain can register that as a threat instantly, and that's the classic caught-off-guard moment, but even if you're planning a difficult conversation all day, your brain can still anticipate risk, rejection, conflict, being wrong, and trigger that response the same way.

Hailey Tielkemeier: For example.

Vanessa Brulotte: Well, you might… I thought about this. You might rehearse what you're going to say to a colleague, giving feedback, and feel calm beforehand, and then in the moment, you start the conversation, your heart rate spikes, your thoughts get fuzzy, and suddenly you're either softening your message or getting more reactive than you intended. That's your amygdala stepping in, trying to protect you, even when there's no real danger.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Right. Yeah. No, I… I feel that. I… I know that I do that. I know that my heart… my heart starts racing. I can always feel my… my face, like, flushing.

Like, I know it is… it's very much a real, like, physiological response. Crazy what our bodies do.

Vanessa Brulotte: Oh, yeah.

Hailey Tielkemeier: So, what are… If you know that this is, like, a response. What are some practical ways to regulate yourself before entering those hard conversations?

Vanessa Brulotte: Yes. Well, if… first, regulate. If your heart rate starts to spike, that's your amygdala kicking in, like we've talked about. come back to your breath. It sounds so simple. It's a simple technique, 4 counts in, 4 counts out. It sounds basic, but it's one of the fastest ways to calm your nervous system.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Huh?

Vanessa Brulotte: And bring your thinking back online, and you can use that not just before the conversation, but during, too.

And the second thing you can do is, like, ground yourself in what you can control. You can't control how the other person reacts. You can only control how you show up and respond, and that mindset alone can really take that pressure off.

And the third thing is going with curiosity instead of certainty. Like, if your goal is to understand, not just to be right. that whole tone of that conversation changes. So one practical way to do that is to write things down ahead of time. I do this all the time, so write it down. Get the thoughts out of your head and onto paper so you can separate the facts from the assumptions that you have on the situation.

And sometimes utilizing frameworks can be really helpful with this, too. So, there's a… one of them is the SBI framework. I don't know if you've utilized or heard of that one before.

Hailey Tielkemeier: It sounds familiar, but I would love for you to…

Vanessa Brulotte: Yeah, yeah.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Explain.

Vanessa Brulotte: This one has definitely saved me a couple times as just a really great method. So these are two methods that I've used the most, or coached on the most, but the SBI framework is Situation Behavior Impact. So you outline what happened, what you observed, and then the impact it had. Then you can enter in the conversation with something like, here's what I'm seeing. What am I missing? And that opens the door.

Hailey Tielkemeier: instead.

Vanessa Brulotte: shutting it, because you're seeking to understand the context there, and then if your context is right, it's like, okay, well, I just want to make sure you understand what impact this had. Let's create a goal together to figure out what the future should look like. And another approach is to name your interpretation.

You can just go into it, because again, conflict can look different. The SBI framework might not be the right one for the conflict you have. And so, if it's naming your interpretation, it's, hey, here are the facts, and what I'm noticing, and here's the story I'm telling myself because of these observations and facts. could you help me understand your perspective? And that opens it up, because you're staying curious. You're like, hey, I'm not coming in with any conclusions, I'm telling you what my perception is of, like, what this is, and the story I'm telling myself. am I right? Like, or am I missing certain facts? Like, help me. And it opens up for that collaboration, and it, you know, they lower defensiveness, it creates psychological safety, and turns that.

Hailey Tielkemeier: we're seeing.

Vanessa Brulotte: into that shared problem-solving moment instead of a confrontation.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah, I love… I feel like one thing that you said really sticks out, and it's… Go into it… are you going into it to seek to understand, or to try to be right?

And I feel like that's a reminder that we all probably need in professional conflict and personal conflict. It's so important to just, like, kind of ground yourself in that.

And that, before you go into a tough conversation.

Vanessa Brulotte: Yeah, and sometimes… I've done this before. This is another, like, kind of side tip that I just thought of after you were saying that, is sometimes we're going into a conversation, and we're very nervous about what it's going to do to the relationship. Or, like.

Hailey Tielkemeier: I agree.

Vanessa Brulotte: You're just nervous altogether. It is okay to break the walls down in that conversation to just say, I want to call out the elephant in the room. I'm actually really nervous to talk to you because I do care about a relationship so much, but it's because I care so much. that I am having this conversation with you. And what I've found is that sometimes it shows that vulnerability and opens up their own vulnerability. And like, a second piece of advice I would have is, if you are going to go into a conversation, give them a heads up. sometimes people have a hard time responding well if they don't know what's coming, and so I did this with an executive one time, where I went into their office, and I said, hey, I just need to let you know there's something that I've been kind of noticing and experiencing with you.

I need to have a conversation, but I'm going to set up some time, and we can talk more about it then. And they were like, oh my gosh, like, what's going on? And I said, you know what, I really prefer if we have a conversation, but I just want to make sure you had a heads up. Conversation went flawlessly. And because I was able to give them a chance to gather their, you know, their thoughts.

Hailey Tielkemeier: come in.

Vanessa Brulotte: with the right mindset. And then we get in there, and I opened it up with, like, I want to call out the elephant in the room. I am very intimidated by you.

I'm very nervous for this conversation, and the response was so amazing, because they said, you know what? I get that a lot, and I don't realize that that's the perception I give. Until recently, when people have given me this feedback, and it was just eye-opening. I'm like. I have been dehumanizing this person because of my own experiences and my own lens. I know we're gonna talk about more of that later, but it's, like, my own experiences and my own lens, and I wasn't allowing growth from my own lens. And…

Hailey Tielkemeier: Hmm.

Vanessa Brulotte: seeing them in a different light, and… and it really helped build our relationship. So, anyway, I'll stop on that.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah.

Vanessa Brulotte: I get really excited about this topic.

Hailey Tielkemeier: No, I actually, I think this leads really well into the next question, which is about viewing situations through, like, a narrator's lens. And you just touched on that a little bit, but I would love to unpack that more.

Vanessa Brulotte: Yes, I'm really excited, because there's something we talked about in our prep call that I'm, like, really excited to hit on. So a lot of time, conflict is driven by a single point of view, and as a leader, you might only have your perspective or secondhand feedback about someone else, and as an employee, you're also seeing the situation from your own lens, and either way, it's incomplete. you don't have the full story. And it actually reminds me of the Fourth Wing series. I don't know if we have any, you know, book lovers in the chat, but…

Hailey Tielkemeier: Jason and I really bonded over this on our prep call, for anyone wondering.

Vanessa Brulotte: Yes. Well, the author, Rebecca Yaros, writes it entirely in first person, so as readers, we only know what the main character, Violet, knows. And we experiencing… we experience everything through her lens, which means we're missing those key pieces of what's really happening to her, and what the experiences of others are happening around her. We don't know other conversations that are happening, we don't know the full story. We only see what she sees. And so conflict at work, like, works that same way with that singular lens, and when we stay in that single perspective, we're reacting to a partial story.

But when we pause, we zoom out, and we seek other perspectives, we start to see that full picture, the full map, and that's where better decisions and real resolutions happen.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah. I love that, and I think it makes so much sense when you think about, yeah, I don't have the context that that other person has. Like, of course I'm going into this with limited understanding. So you have talked about, like, when we are viewing things through the narrator's lens, through our own lens, a lot of times our brains seek to fill in the gaps with assumptions. Why is that so dangerous?

Vanessa Brulotte: Yes, yes, kind of going back to that partial story piece, and it's natural for our brains to really fill in those gaps with the information that we already have in our storage base.

And our brain is constantly trying to make sense of the world quickly, and it doesn't like uncertainty. So when we don't have all the facts, it uses those past experiences, your own biases, and pattern recognition to really complete that story for us. And the problem is that these stories often feel just as real as facts.

That's the scary part. So that's makes it dangerous. We're no longer reacting to what actually happened, we're reacting to the meaning that we've assigned to it. And that meaning is often skewed towards threat, and our brain is wired to protect us, so it tends to assume negative intent. They're being disrespectful. They don't care. They went around me on purpose. You see this in reality TV all the time. It's like the best in class exam… like, it's the master class, if you ever want reality TV, go look at the way that they interact in the drama, even if the producers are putting it together. Like, watch it, and how they don't communicate with each other, and so many assumptions are made, nobody focuses on the facts. And so it's very interesting. But our behavior follows the story, and we might get defensive, avoid the person, escalate the situation, all based on something we don't actually know to be true. So, the risk isn't just that we're wrong, it's that we act on those assumptions as if they're facts, and how the small misunderstandings Turn into much bigger conflict, where it's.

Hailey Tielkemeier: in a rough.

Vanessa Brulotte: And the shift is learning to catch that moment and say, what do I actually know, and what am I missing?

Hailey Tielkemeier: Mmm.

Vanessa Brulotte: So take that pause, and that creates that space for a much more productive conversation. So when you're going back to, kind of, the tips I was talking about earlier, when you're writing it down, do that. What I do, sometimes what's helpful is write down everything, all the emotions, everything, write out everything. And then say, okay, where are the facts?

And then pull those out. And then list of facts, if it's a lot of facts, put them into themes. What are the themes that you're seeing? That breaks it down. So, like, as an example, with that executive I had feedback for, I did that. I had, like, a whiteboard full of all the different things going on, and I realized a lot of the things that I thought were facts were assumptions. And then I pulled out the fat.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Mmm.

Vanessa Brulotte: I created 3 different themes, and then by doing all the steps I did, and then walking that person through all the themes, we were able to very clearly identify how we can move forward and partner and collaborate together. And so it's a really good tool to use.

Hailey Tielkemeier: I love that. I, are there any…

Vanessa Brulotte: M.

Hailey Tielkemeier: other, like… Tactical tools to be able to stop assumptions before they escalate. Yep.

Vanessa Brulotte: Yes. Yes. When I coach people, I start with, like, two simple checks. Do you actually have all the facts, and have you actively sought out the other person's perspective or response?

And most of the time, the answer is no. And that's where that opportunity is. I think, you know, because we've already talked about gathering all the facts, but have you given the other person a chance to respond before you've come to your conclusions?

I think this is a really great tip for leaders, because that can be so easy to do, is like, oh, well, you know, like, as an example, like, somebody downloaded something that they shouldn't, or they're working a program that isn't, you know, approved, and so they're doing. they shouldn't, and they need to get in trouble. And it's like, okay, but what if there's actually, like, a reasonable explanation?

Or, you know, if somebody doesn't show up to work, it's like, oh, job abandonment. Okay, no, did you reach out to them to see if they're okay? Check on them? There could be a life at stake, like, let's check on them. But, but I think a helpful way to think about this is the parable of the blind men and the elephant.

I love this parable. I reference this all the time, but it's each person is touching a different part of the elephant to describe what it is. So one feels the trunk and says it's a snake. Another feels the leg and says it's a tree, and they're all confident, but they're all incomplete. So, that's exactly what those assumptions are. We're holding onto one piece of that story, and treating it like that entire truth.

So stopping assumptions really means slowing down, testing your story before you act on it, and I encourage people to say, like, here's what I'm seeing, here's the story I'm telling myself, can you help me understand your perspective? Go back to that method, and try to.

Hailey Tielkemeier: and understanding.

Vanessa Brulotte: the real truth and, turn that assumption into questions. And, and you'll, you'll come out on top from that.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah. That's awesome. I… slow down, I think, also is gonna stick with me. Just… Slow down. Stop. Think.

I think that's great.

Vanessa Brulotte: You can add me to your quote wall, you know, that's…

Hailey Tielkemeier: No, I'm gonna put a post-it on my…

Vanessa Brulotte: Yes. Go down. Yes.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Okay, so another thing that I know that you are very passionate about is radical candor. How would you… Define that.

Vanessa Brulotte: Yes, I would tell people, if you've never read Kim Scott's book, Radical Candor, do it. It is one of my staples in my library, but in the book, Kim describes feedback across four different quadrants. There's radical candor, ruinous empathy, obnoxious aggression, and manipulative insincerity. And so radical candor sits in that. sweet spot. It's where you care personally and challenged directly. It means you're willing to say the hard thing, but you do it because you genuinely care about the person and their success.

So where we often get stuck is leaning too far one way. So we either avoid the conversation to be nice, that's ruinous empathy, or we're blunt without care, which comes across as obnoxious aggression. Radical It's about balancing both.

And so for me, it's not just about giving direct feedback, it's about giving clear, honest feedback in a way that shows that respect and investment in the other person. So it's saying, I care enough to not let this go unspoken. So going back to the tips of entering in a conflict situation, calling this out. Be like, I care.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Huh?

Vanessa Brulotte: And, hey, I'm nervous to have this conversation, but I care about you enough to not let this slide. Because I want you to be successful. If you don't want someone to be successful, don't talk to them. Like, I guess…

Hailey Tielkemeier: That's a good rule of thumb. Awesome. What would you say is the difference between being direct in your candor and being just a jerk?

Vanessa Brulotte: Yes, and I think sometimes this gets convoluted with people, because they're like, I'm not being a jerk. Like, you know, a leader might say, like, I want to just say, like, what the heck were you thinking? You know, and get upset with somebody. I'm like, oh, there's a more tactful way to approach this.

I think that's exactly how I said it, too.

Hailey Tielkemeier: that?

Vanessa Brulotte: But being direct means you're clear, specific, focused on that problem, and you're grounding your feedback in facts and impact, and your intent is to help move things forward, and using those methods we talked about. And being a jerk is what Kim Scott calls the obnoxious aggression. is when that same message becomes personal. You're no longer focused on the work, you're focused on the person. And so, it's got… my boss always says, like, She's like, be hard on the problem, not the person.

And I love that feedback, It's like, it's such a cool principle to live off of.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah, because…

Vanessa Brulotte: Because if you're hard on the problem, you're opening up for collaboration, and people want to continue to work. build trust. If you ever want a person, and, like, them personally, walls get built, there's distrust, it hurts morale, yeah.

And, you know, some of the emotions can take over, and that sounds like you're careless. You always drop the ball. That's a mess. Do you even know.

Hailey Tielkemeier: you're.

Vanessa Brulotte: That's not productive. And so what… the difference isn't whether the message is hard, it's how it's delivered and where it's aimed. So direct feedback targets behavior and outcomes. being a jerk is targeting that person personally. And a gut check is, am I trying to help this person succeed, or just vent my frustration?

Hailey Tielkemeier: Right.

Vanessa Brulotte: So, when you're…

Hailey Tielkemeier: That's a great gut check, yeah.

Vanessa Brulotte: Yeah, when you're planning that conversation, do that gut check. What is my approach? What am I trying to do here? And that usually tells you which side of the line that you're kind of on.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah. That's awesome. Love a good gut check. Yes. So we've been talking a lot about, sort of conflict, from a leadership perspective, but I want to make sure that we also touch on, Crucial Conversations in different directions, whether that's upward or on a peer level. So… And we're gonna start off with a leadership-based question, but how can leaders create psychological safety so that employees feel comfortable disagreeing, whether it is with their leaders or with their peers?

Vanessa Brulotte: Yes, it's a great question, and it really comes down to trust, and how leaders.

Hailey Tielkemeier: so…

Vanessa Brulotte: up in those moments of tension. Psychological safety isn't built by saying you can disagree, it's built by how you respond when somebody actually does. And so leaders that safety by modeling open communication and curiosity. So when you give feedback or hear a different perspective, pause, seek to understand instead of immediately correcting or defending, and ask those questions, what am I missing? Can you walk me through what you're seeing? What signals that input is valued, not punished?

Hailey Tielkemeier: So, empathy.

Vanessa Brulotte: is a big part of this, too. Recognizing that speaking up can feel risky. When someone does take that risk, how you respond matters. If you shut it down, people won't do it again, and you're no longer a safe space.

If you acknowledge it and engage with it, you build trust. And over time, it's those small moments, listening, asking, not reacting defensively, that create a culture where people feel safe enough to disagree, which ultimately leads to better decisions. Or if you're a leader, Who, you know, you're in a meeting, someone says something inappropriate, and you see somebody who's you know, kind of disengaged, and you're like, hey, let's not focus on that. That's, we want to keep this conversation professional, let's redirect to this conversation. Then you can approach that conflict afterwards with those two individuals. But you're able to… you need to be able to manage the room.

As a leader, when you're in those in moments, and redirect the conversation, because what you're doing is you're stating what's tolerated and what's not, but still managing that conflict.

Hailey Tielkemeier: - Yeah, I think that's awesome. What would you say, if someone… and I think you gave us a great example when you were talking about giving your exact feedback, but, What are some ways that you can tactfully disagree with leadership. I know with all… it's, like, scary for all of us. Yeah.

Vanessa Brulotte: Oh yeah, even for me sometimes.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah, yeah. Again, we are all human!

Vanessa Brulotte: Human, yes! Yeah! It can feel really intimidating to disagree with senior leadership, and that's.

Hailey Tielkemeier: smooth.

Vanessa Brulotte: normal, like we're saying, and human, and the key is to approach it as a strategic partner, not as opposition. So start by being constructive and solution-oriented. Don't just point out what you disagree with, bring an alternative. Leaders are much more When you're helping move the business forward, not just critiquing it.

And so it's important to understand what matters to them. What are their goals? What KPIs.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Are they focused?

Vanessa Brulotte: focused on. Then frame your perspective in that context. When you speak their language and connect your input to what they care about. you're gonna find so much more, you know, resolvement from the things that you're bringing forward, because you are… you are on their level at that point. Yeah. And so that's what I would say, is approach it with those… those tips.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah, I love that, getting on their level, and I'm… not to, compare leadership to toddlers, but I have small children, and so I find that I am constantly physically getting on their level, you know, and trying to relate to them in a way that's gonna make sense and make them want to do what I want them to do.

Vanessa Brulotte: Yes.

Hailey Tielkemeier: So it's almost like… yeah. No, go ahead.

Vanessa Brulotte: No, I love that, though, because also, there's still the element of, be curious. You know, come in with this approach and this strategic partnership, but get curious, because they might have a lens that you don't know, or you can't see.

Hailey Tielkemeier: nature.

Vanessa Brulotte: just like reverse, they don't know things that you know. And so go in there with these things in mind as that strategic partner and the solutions and, like, things that you're seeing and tied to everything, but saying, am I missing anything? What are.

Hailey Tielkemeier: used.

Vanessa Brulotte: And then, sometimes if they give feedback back, you can say, oh, yeah, no, here's how it's tied to this. And then it becomes a collaborative effort with more information so they can make a more informed decision.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah. Love that. We can all make more informed decisions.

Vanessa Brulotte: Y-yes.

Hailey Tielkemeier: It's a win for everyone.

Vanessa Brulotte: Yes.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Okay, so, Let's move to practical takeaways. Also, I am so sorry, y'all, if you can hear it. A construction truck just, like, pulled up outside of my window. Things that you can't plan for when you're hosting webinars, so sorry if y'all can hear that, and if it's, distracting.

But let's move to some practical… Takeaways that everyone can, go forth and manage their conflict. So, if someone listening today is a conflict avoider, I'll raise my hand, what's one mindset shift you would tell them that they should make in order to overcome that?

Vanessa Brulotte: If you… if you tend to avoid conflict, that biggest mind… the biggest mindset shift I'd offer is you're not responsible for controlling the outcome. You're responsible.

Hailey Tielkemeier: for me.

Vanessa Brulotte: how you show up. And you can't control how someone else reacts, but you can control your response. And I think… I like to think of it as holding the remote to your own emotions. Don't hand that over to somebody else. You have full control over your remote, so… you're responsible for how you show up. Take your remote, hold onto it. Keep it secret, keep it safe, as Gandalf would say. And alongside that, shift from avoidance to curiosity. Instead of.

Hailey Tielkemeier: thinking.

Vanessa Brulotte: this is going to go badly, ask, what might I be missing here? Focus on the facts, separate out your assumptions, and go in with the intent to understand, not to be understood. Because when you make that shift.

From control to ownership, and fear to curiosity, conflict becomes a conversation, not something to avoid.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Conflict becomes a conversation. Also, I'm gonna put that as a It's tough.

That's awesome. That's awesome. I also love the imagery of the remote, because it's like, okay, I can turn the volume up, I can turn it down… I can go from Netflix to Disney+. I am in charge!

Vanessa Brulotte: Exactly!

Hailey Tielkemeier: Love that. Okay, and something that I know everyone will be pumped to talk about is how you can use, AI in conflict. So, you have mentioned partnering with AI to fill in knowledge gaps. How can we… what are some AI tools that we can be using to help manage These types of conversations.

Vanessa Brulotte: Oh, man. Yeah, because AI is, like, at our fingertips now. There's so many things out there. you know, even just as simple as ChatGPT. Like, there's a lot of things at Gemini, and AI can be a really powerful thought partner when you're preparing for a crucial conversation. It helps you slow down, organize your thinking, and really approach the conversation more intentionally.

So, for example, you can use AI to structure your message. Like, you might say, here's the situation, help me frame this with the SBI situation behavior impact model with empathy.

Hailey Tielkemeier: or a season.

Vanessa Brulotte: your leader. And that helps you separate the facts from emotion and get clear on what you actually want to say, because you can listen it out, okay, help me frame this, help me make it empathetic, and get curious. You can also use it to pressure test your approach, and ask, like, okay, here's how I'm about to approach this. How might this land? Or what am I missing? Or even, can you.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Give me.

Vanessa Brulotte: a more constructive way to phrase this. And it can help you shift from reactive language to something more clear, calm, solution-oriented. I have done this because, let's be honest, we're all human beings. I have moments where I'm like, okay, my emotions are definitely getting the best of me, and I think I'm approaching this the right way, but I want to pressure test my own… myself, and say, hey, is this gonna land like I'm a reasonable partner? No? Okay, I will fix this.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Okay, great.

Vanessa Brulotte: And ask it… sometimes AI tends to be really agreeable, and so ask it to play that devil's advocate role for you, and say, no, I need you to push back on me.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Come on.

Vanessa Brulotte: And so then, if you frame it that way, you can get a lot more feedback.

And it's great for that perspective-taking. You can ask AI to roleplay the other person's point of view, which helps you anticipate reactions and go in more prepared. So it's not about replacing that human side of the conversation, it's about helping you show up a lot more thoughtful, clear, and grounded when it matters the most.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah, totally. Just, like, preparing. I love the role-playing idea, that's so smart, so then you can just maybe, like, just helps you better prepare for what their reaction might be. Love that. Do you have a favorite AI tool? Like, are you usually doing it with ChatGPT?

Vanessa Brulotte: Yes, I do love ChatGPT, and Gemini is great as well, but…

Hailey Tielkemeier: No.

Vanessa Brulotte: Keep an eye out, because we're kind of in that age of AI is not just developing now, that there's a ton of companies out there with softwares that are being built for this very thing, and kind of keep an eye out for kind of the resources that are going to become available. And when you think about in your organizations. How do you want to help encourage people to have crucial conversations, be open, and have…

Hailey Tielkemeier: Good.

Vanessa Brulotte: you know, feedback models, you know, how can you utilize AI as, you know, that thought partner? And there might be softwares coming available that,

Hailey Tielkemeier: I mean…

Vanessa Brulotte: Help with that.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yeah, love that. Well, awesome, Vanessa, that is the end of my questions. Is there anything else that you want to… In part to this crew.

Vanessa Brulotte: Yeah, I think one of my final thoughts that I think is relevant to most people is take care of your mental health.

I think about this a lot, and a lot of us can get into doomscrolling when we want to avoid conflict. We go somewhere else to get a quick, you know, moment of just like… yeah, anyway, but doomscrolling, it puts your amygdala into hyperdrive, and that's gonna impact your ability to go into any conversation being calm.

And so, limit yourself, create boundaries for yourself, because your brain is precious, your remote is precious, and…

Hailey Tielkemeier: You know?

Vanessa Brulotte: Keep it secret, keep it safe, but, like. And take care of yourself, because you matter.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yes, oh my gosh, that was… Lovely. Lovely way to, lovely way to end, yes, period.

Vanessa Brulotte: Exactly.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Okay, well, I'm gonna, talk about, like, two more things, and I'm gonna give everyone here an opportunity to drop a question in the chat for Vanessa, if you do have any, but, let me, real quick, I'm gonna go back to… I'm gonna reshare here.

And while you're dropping questions in the chat, if you have any, I want to invite you all to, our annual summit, Fixed Healthcare Live. It is going to be held in San Francisco on April 29th. We're bringing in a bunch of, people leaders, benefits leaders.

We'll have really great sessions on… it'll mostly be focused on the future of, Benefits, but we'll also have sessions on, you know, how to align with executive leadership goals. Things that will be super relevant to you and your roles. in person in San Francisco, but we are also hosting a virtual option as well, and I am going to drop the link to register in the chat here.

And then the next thing that I want to invite you to is, we have a Slack community called Change Agents, full of HR and people leaders who are all kind of navigating the same things. So it's a great place to go connect, to get advice, people will drop… we had a really big thread in there the other day about everyone's favorite Leave software, so it could be anything from software advice, or maybe, you know, back to our conversation today. I need to give feedback to this exec, and I really want advice on the best way to approach it. You can go to that community to Connect and get advice.

And I think that is all I have. If no one… it looks like all of our questions were… one question was in the Q&A, about if the recording will be sent out, and I will send out, a recording after we're done, but that is all we have, and I want to thank you so much for joining us, Vanessa. It was so… Enlightening. I know that I'm going away from this conversation with some really great tools to handle conflict in my life, so we appreciate… I'm gonna speak for everyone here, we appreciate you so much for sharing your insights.

Vanessa Brulotte: Well, thank you, and thank you for the opportunity.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Continue.

Vanessa Brulotte: It's been fun to chat with you.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Yes, yes! Alright, well, everyone, that's all we got. Go forth and… Manage your conflict.

Vanessa Brulotte: Yeah. Alright, thank you.

Hailey Tielkemeier: Bye!

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